Thread: Made in USA and Trade Law thread

nebish - 1/23/2017 at 11:24 PM

Decided to make it's own thread. From the campaign trail, the inaugural address to executive order canceling TPP (would've failed to pass Congress anyway). There are meetings scheduled with Canada and Mexico, NAFTA will be up for renegotiation. That came out today.

Trump met with 12 CEOs this morning before meeting with several union leaders later in the day.

quote:
“If you go to another country” and cut U.S. jobs “we are going to be imposing a very major border tax” on that product, he told the executives.


The other side of the equation is Trump is hoping to cut regulatory costs and taxes these businesses are subjected to.

Dow CEO said:

quote:
"I would take the president at his word here: He’s not going to do anything to harm competitiveness," Liveris said. "He’s going to actually make us all more competitive."


Link - https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-01-23/trump-said-to-meet-w ith-dow-ceo-liveris-labor-leaders-on-monday

I was listening to Thom Hartman today during the meeting Trump was having with business CEOs and Thom was going on about "he isn't going to do anything against these people's interests. The Republican party is the arm that these people use to secure their profits and position...where are the unions, notice they weren't part of the meeting. No surprise because Republicans do not represent the goals of union workers - Please allow my paraphrasing there.

Then wouldn't you know, later in the day a meeting with a hose of union leaders at the White House. Unfortunately I wasn't able to hear Thom's reaction to that. The meeting was publicized this morning..imagine Hartman doesn't follow Trump's schedule too closely though.

Imagine that...a Republican President calling leaders of various labor unions to the White House.


pops42 - 1/23/2017 at 11:26 PM

Will trump stop having his products made overseas?


nebish - 1/23/2017 at 11:27 PM

Please feel free to post anything in here, something you found that was made in USA, something you wish was USA. Pricing differences, etc. Anything. I virtually live my life searching out made in USA items and know that alot of things can be found and I personally find it very rewarding when you don't think you can find it and then you do.

Or the thread can be used for political trade talk also. Jobs, trade history, etc.

But I have a special photo for Bhawk...look what a trip to Target showed up today?



But yeah, sometimes buying American costs more. These were $1.49 compared to the $.75 China garlic your store had.


pops42 - 1/23/2017 at 11:32 PM

Mexico will not renegotiate nafta http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-37945913
And they are NOT paying for any f#cking wall.


nebish - 1/23/2017 at 11:40 PM

quote:
Mexico will not renegotiate nafta http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-37945913
And they are NOT paying for any f#cking wall.



Well, yeah because they stand to lose...alot.

Thank you for that link. I take serious exception with one thing however:

quote:
The Congressional Research Service, which provides independent analysis, said in 2015: "In reality, Nafta did not cause the huge job losses feared by the critics or the large economic gains predicted by supporters." It also said: "The net overall effect of Nafta on the US economy appears to have been relatively modest, primarily because trade with Canada and Mexico accounts for a small percentage of US GDP."


Countless sources can be provided that state otherwise.

As to the wall...I always thought that Mexico would never pay for it directly and that an import tariff would in fact be the funding to build it. Trump has never said that though. The fact that he so emphatically said Mexico would pay for it and then said now "they will pay us back" is clearly a broken promise unless he somehow gets it paid for indirectly with a tariff on Mexican goods coming in.

[Edited on 1/23/2017 by nebish]


nebish - 1/23/2017 at 11:41 PM

quote:
Will trump stop having his products made overseas?


He most certainly should have done that long ago.


Muleman1994 - 1/24/2017 at 01:33 AM

quote:
Mexico will not renegotiate nafta http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-37945913
And they are NOT paying for any f#cking wall.


___________________________________________________________________________ ____________

Wrong again numbnuts.

Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto said that he will visit President Trump soon along with the Canadia PM to discuss the renegotiation of NAFTA.


Muleman1994 - 1/24/2017 at 01:34 AM

RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.


pops42 - 1/24/2017 at 02:57 AM

quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.

You were for the TPP 18 months ago, and told us it was passed back then???


LeglizHemp - 1/24/2017 at 02:59 AM

i still withhold judgement for results.....which will take months to see


nebish - 1/24/2017 at 04:15 AM

Changing trade law, a bipartisan issue! I sometimes wonder if Trump will have more Democrats or Republicans supporting him on trade renegotiation?

Sherrod Brown is not only one of my Senators, but was also a very strong supporter of Hillary Clinton in Ohio and at one time was rumored to be a VP candidate for her.

From Brown's website:

quote:
Today’s Action is Among Series of Steps Brown Outlined to Retool U.S. Trade Policy
Monday, January 23, 2017

WASHINGTON, D.C. – After more than 30 years of fighting for a fair trade agenda that puts American workers first, U.S. Sen. Sherrod Brown (D-OH) is applauding President Donald Trump’s executive order withdrawing from the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). Brown reached out to Trump immediately following the election, offering to work with the President to renegotiate NAFTA and outlining specific steps Trump should take to fulfill his campaign promises on trade. Trump responded with a hand-written note.

“Throwing out TPP is the first necessary step in overhauling our trade policy to put American workers first,” said Brown. “I stand ready to support Ohio workers by working with the Trump Administration to renegotiate NAFTA, put American workers ahead of corporate profits, and create jobs.”

As a long-time advocate for fair trade, Brown has stood up to presidents of both parties against shortsighted trade agreements that ship U.S. jobs overseas. He led the bipartisan opposition to NAFTA in 1993 – as a freshman in the U.S. House of Representatives – and to CAFTA in 2005. He has been the leading opponent of TPP for several years and led opposition against fast-track authority in the Senate, which would have made it easier for Congress to approve TPP and other massive trade deals with limited debate.
https://www.brown.senate.gov/newsroom/press/release/brown-applauds-executiv e-action-on-tpp-after-decades-fighting-for-fair-trade


Swifty - 1/24/2017 at 05:54 AM

There needs to be symmetry in these kinds of agreements. If Trump's style of negotiation is belligerent and his only goal is to enforce US interests, then he could force Mexico to accept conditions that impose hardship on its citizens. Trump's style of squeezing someone to get the best deal may not be in the best US interest.

Right now Mexico has turned over large amounts of land that used to be devoted to subsistence agriculture to cash cropping and these products are exported to the US and Canada. What if this land was turned back to subsistence cropping for the Mexican market and Mexican products disappeared from US stores? What would this do to the average household grocery budget? Food costs could easily increase 50% which would be devastating for low income Americans.

Mexico has also stepped up security on its southern border and this has stopped the flow of Central Americans coming to the US. The majority of illegals in the US with criminal records are Central Americans. Obama has been deporting them and Trump wants to continue deporting them. The problem is that they have not just accepted their fate and gotten jobs, mainly because there are no jobs and many don't speak Spanish. Instead they join gangs and these are very large violent gangs. If Mexico provides Central Americans an open route back to the US many of them would come back. A wall is not going to stop them from coming back to the US where the authorities would have to chase them down again. This pattern could get very expensive.

What about the drug cartels in northern Mexico? If any trade deal displaces laborers in central Mexico then more will join the labor hungry drug gangs. More labor means more tunnels and more drugs crossing the border. This will require more border surveillance and security. It will be even more difficult to control if Central Americans are employed as mules.

Renegotiating NAFTA is a lot more complicated than slapping tariffs on products and getting jobs back to the US. Destabilizing Mexico could have nightmarish consequences in the US.

There is also a big cultural divide between the Trump camp and Mexicans. Trump has figured out how to appeal to blue collar Americans but to do this he had to trash Mexicans. I really doubt Mexicans are going to treat him royally and this will piss him off and then his ego will erupt.


nebish - 1/24/2017 at 02:12 PM

quote:
There needs to be symmetry in these kinds of agreements. If Trump's style of negotiation is belligerent and his only goal is to enforce US interests, then he could force Mexico to accept conditions that impose hardship on its citizens. Trump's style of squeezing someone to get the best deal may not be in the best US interest.

Right now Mexico has turned over large amounts of land that used to be devoted to subsistence agriculture to cash cropping and these products are exported to the US and Canada. What if this land was turned back to subsistence cropping for the Mexican market and Mexican products disappeared from US stores? What would this do to the average household grocery budget? Food costs could easily increase 50% which would be devastating for low income Americans.

Mexico has also stepped up security on its southern border and this has stopped the flow of Central Americans coming to the US. The majority of illegals in the US with criminal records are Central Americans. Obama has been deporting them and Trump wants to continue deporting them. The problem is that they have not just accepted their fate and gotten jobs, mainly because there are no jobs and many don't speak Spanish. Instead they join gangs and these are very large violent gangs. If Mexico provides Central Americans an open route back to the US many of them would come back. A wall is not going to stop them from coming back to the US where the authorities would have to chase them down again. This pattern could get very expensive.

What about the drug cartels in northern Mexico? If any trade deal displaces laborers in central Mexico then more will join the labor hungry drug gangs. More labor means more tunnels and more drugs crossing the border. This will require more border surveillance and security. It will be even more difficult to control if Central Americans are employed as mules.

Renegotiating NAFTA is a lot more complicated than slapping tariffs on products and getting jobs back to the US. Destabilizing Mexico could have nightmarish consequences in the US.

There is also a big cultural divide between the Trump camp and Mexicans. Trump has figured out how to appeal to blue collar Americans but to do this he had to trash Mexicans. I really doubt Mexicans are going to treat him royally and this will piss him off and then his ego will erupt.



Good points Swifty. As I said, Mexico has a lot to lose, I do have a hard time seeing what Trump could give them that would leave them with a favorable feeling on a new NAFTA. Canada on the other hand, I've read there are things that they would like modernized and updated which would favor them more in certain ways than it does now, and depending what is negotiated on the other end that might be a win-win perhaps.

I think we need to be careful when predicting both winning and losing scenarios coming out of a renegotiated or trade with Mexico involving tariffs simply because most of which we were told leading up to the passage of NAFTA has not taken root, or in fact the opposite happened. Speaking to illegal immigration, NAFTA was seen as a way to boost the economy in Mexico and stem illegal immigration flows from their country. But the opposite happened, illegal immigration from Mexico soared.

Lately, it has been my understanding that there were more Central Americans coming into our country illegally than Mexicans, certainly not stopped it. I'd be happy to read something supporting your claim that Central American illegal immigration to the US has "stopped".

Quickly I just found this from fall 2016

quote:
For the second time in three years, the U.S. Border Patrol is apprehending more non-Mexicans than Mexicans along the southwest border, reflecting a renewed surge of Central American migrants fleeing violence and gang warfare in their home countries.


And

quote:
Through August of this year, there were a total of 369,411 apprehensions on the U.S.-Mexico border. More than half of those were of non-Mexicans, the statistics show. As of July, the border patrol had apprehended 57,344 people from El Salvador, 58,337 from Guatemala and 41,042 from Honduras compared to 160,193 from Mexico.

Apprehensions of non-Mexicans first outnumbered those from Mexico in 2014, according to an analysis by the Pew Research Center. Faye Hipsman, policy analyst at the Migration Policy Institute in Washington, D.C., says the trend isn’t fading.


link - https://www.texastribune.org/2016/09/15/central-american-illegal-immigratio n-us-border-loo/

I agree it is a very complicated issue and you raise points that many may not be considering, all things need considered. My position on the complicated nature of it is that so many US and foreign companies have invested and positioned themselves to export goods from Mexico into the US that really anything would have to be phased in because drastic shock to the system really could have a detrimental effect on both countries.

Trump's focus may just be on new investments and new production. So then any new construction of plants or expansion at existing plants would have to be done in the US or they face that border tax. That seems like a much easier issue to grapple with, although from my point of view it wouldn't be ideal, however it may satisfy some of your concerns while also balancing the needs of large companies like the auto industry and their supporting businesses.

[Edited on 1/24/2017 by nebish]


Muleman1994 - 1/24/2017 at 02:46 PM

quote:
quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.

You were for the TPP 18 months ago, and told us it was passed back then???

___________________________________________________________________________ ___________

Wrong again son.
I never supported and actively posted against the TPP piece of crap.
Now of course, Hillary Clinton was all for TPP and called it "the gold standard" until she was running for President. Donald Trump campaigned against TPP and enjoyed the support of the Unions.
Hillary immediately changed her position.

Try to keep up pops.


Chain - 1/24/2017 at 05:45 PM

quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.



Actually Congress never ratified the treaty and thus it has never been in effect. His recent executive order was redundant and so he killed an already dead horse....Unless Congress wants to ratify it...But it's a good photo opt. for his supporters who don't understand the nuances of trade agreements and how they're ratified. I wonder if any of these folks visit this forum?

[Edited on 1/24/2017 by Chain]

[Edited on 1/24/2017 by Chain]


Muleman1994 - 1/24/2017 at 07:04 PM

quote:
quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.



Actually Congress never ratified the treaty and thus it has never been in effect. His recent executive order was redundant and so he killed an already dead horse....Unless Congress wants to ratify it...But it's a good photo opt. for his supporters who don't understand the nuances of trade agreements and how they're ratified. I wonder if any of these folks visit this forum?

[Edited on 1/24/2017 by Chain]

[Edited on 1/24/2017 by Chain]

___________________________________________________________________________ ___________

Congress will never see the "treaty" now that it is dead.
The Union Leadership is very happy the TPP piece of crap is dead too:

UNION LEADERS APPLAUD PRESIDENT TRUMP During Meeting at White House (VIDEO)
Trump told the union leaders the US withdrew from TPP and they all cheered and applauded him.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/01/union-leaders-applaud-president-tr ump-meeting-white-house-video/



Muleman1994 - 1/24/2017 at 07:05 PM

Union leaders and their members are even happier today:

• Two orders reviving the Keystone XL pipeline and Dakota Access piplines. He also signed three other related orders that would: expedite the environmental permitting process for infrastructure projects related to the pipelines; direct the Commerce Department to streamline the manufacturing permitting process; and give the Commerce Department 180 days to maximize the use of U.S. steel in the pipeline.


pops42 - 1/24/2017 at 08:17 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.

You were for the TPP 18 months ago, and told us it was passed back then???

___________________________________________________________________________ ___________

Wrong again son.
I never supported and actively posted against the TPP piece of crap.
Now of course, Hillary Clinton was all for TPP and called it "the gold standard" until she was running for President. Donald Trump campaigned against TPP and enjoyed the support of the Unions.
Hillary immediately changed her position.

Try to keep up pops.


Read your own posts, you lying imbicile http://www.allmanbrothers.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&fi le=viewthread&tid=139329#pid3151418


Muleman1994 - 1/24/2017 at 08:49 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.

You were for the TPP 18 months ago, and told us it was passed back then???

___________________________________________________________________________ ___________

Wrong again son.
I never supported and actively posted against the TPP piece of crap.
Now of course, Hillary Clinton was all for TPP and called it "the gold standard" until she was running for President. Donald Trump campaigned against TPP and enjoyed the support of the Unions.
Hillary immediately changed her position.

Try to keep up pops.


Read your own posts, you lying imbicile http://www.allmanbrothers.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&fi le=viewthread&tid=139329#pid3151418

___________________________________________________________________________ _________

You really are a f'n idiot.
Read my post. I was just noting that fast-track had been enabled. I did not and have never posted any support for TPP.

I see your public school education failed to teach you to read.
That is okay. The Democrats need as many idiots as they can get.


pops42 - 1/24/2017 at 08:59 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.

You were for the TPP 18 months ago, and told us it was passed back then???

___________________________________________________________________________ ___________

Wrong again son.
I never supported and actively posted against the TPP piece of crap.
Now of course, Hillary Clinton was all for TPP and called it "the gold standard" until she was running for President. Donald Trump campaigned against TPP and enjoyed the support of the Unions.
Hillary immediately changed her position.

Try to keep up pops.


Read your own posts, you lying imbicile http://www.allmanbrothers.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&fi le=viewthread&tid=139329#pid3151418

___________________________________________________________________________ _________

You really are a f'n idiot.
Read my post. I was just noting that fast-track had been enabled. I did not and have never posted any support for TPP.

I see your public school education failed to teach you to read.
That is okay. The Democrats need as many idiots as they can get.

I resurrected the thread, your ignorance is on full display for all to see.


Muleman1994 - 1/24/2017 at 09:10 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.

You were for the TPP 18 months ago, and told us it was passed back then???

___________________________________________________________________________ ___________

Wrong again son.
I never supported and actively posted against the TPP piece of crap.
Now of course, Hillary Clinton was all for TPP and called it "the gold standard" until she was running for President. Donald Trump campaigned against TPP and enjoyed the support of the Unions.
Hillary immediately changed her position.

Try to keep up pops.


Read your own posts, you lying imbicile http://www.allmanbrothers.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&fi le=viewthread&tid=139329#pid3151418

___________________________________________________________________________ _________

You really are a f'n idiot.
Read my post. I was just noting that fast-track had been enabled. I did not and have never posted any support for TPP.

I see your public school education failed to teach you to read.
That is okay. The Democrats need as many idiots as they can get.

I resurrected the thread, your ignorance is on full display for all to see.

___________________________________________________________________________ __________

Where in that post did I express any support for the TPP?
Come on dumba$$, where?


pops42 - 1/24/2017 at 09:31 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
RIP TPP

President Trump protects U.S. businesses and workers and voids any and all TPP.
It is done.

You were for the TPP 18 months ago, and told us it was passed back then???

___________________________________________________________________________ ___________

Wrong again son.
I never supported and actively posted against the TPP piece of crap.
Now of course, Hillary Clinton was all for TPP and called it "the gold standard" until she was running for President. Donald Trump campaigned against TPP and enjoyed the support of the Unions.
Hillary immediately changed her position.

Try to keep up pops.


Read your own posts, you lying imbicile http://www.allmanbrothers.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&fi le=viewthread&tid=139329#pid3151418

___________________________________________________________________________ _________

You really are a f'n idiot.
Read my post. I was just noting that fast-track had been enabled. I did not and have never posted any support for TPP.

I see your public school education failed to teach you to read.
That is okay. The Democrats need as many idiots as they can get.

I resurrected the thread, your ignorance is on full display for all to see.

___________________________________________________________________________ __________

Where in that post did I express any support for the TPP?
Come on dumba$$, where?

Go read your own words, fu@k-wit.


nebish - 1/24/2017 at 09:35 PM

Hopefully you reject fast track authority to the President as well.

[Edited on 1/24/2017 by nebish]


nebish - 1/25/2017 at 02:36 AM

Something that I think is incredibly important that I haven't heard yet...I see the Whirlpool CEO attended yesterday's meeting at the White House.

We can tell these companies that if they outsource production here and lay off US workers, or if they invest in new production outside of our border to bring finished product in for sale, we can tell them if they do that they will face a border tax.

Here is the big BUT

We can't have those rules for US companies and not foreign companies. Home appliances made in South Korea have exploded in the last several years. We can't allow Samsung or LG to enjoy the lower overhead costs (even after shipping) of their country and come in here duty free when we are requiring our companies to stay put or else they get hit with a tariff. So if Whirlpool closed a plant here to build refrigerators in Mexico, Trump is saying they will get hit with a border tax. Yet if LG builds a refrigerator in Korea, they don't get hit with a border tax. That is incredibly unfair to the companies producing in the US and dramatically impacts their competitiveness in the market place. Hopefully more to come on this.

For anyone who doesn't think a tariff works...here's a good example.

quote:
This and subsequent dumping findings against Korea,
Taiwan, and Japan (most recently for 1986-87) resulted
in the imposition of duties on TVs imported from these
countries. Foreign efforts to rescind the duties have failed,
but duties have reportedly sometimes been avoided by
shipping TVs or components to the United States through
third countries.
https://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk2/1990/9007/900710.PDF



This is still in place. So did you ever wonder why all the name brand flat panel TVs are made in Mexico? Just to be close to the market they are selling in? Yeah, part of it. Sony and Panasonic and JVC and Samsung and LG have all heavily invested in TV manufacturing plants in Mexico and they did this to avoid the tariff that they would've been subjected to if they produced said TVs in Asian countries and sold them in the US.

Companies do take action and invest accordingly in the face of a tariff or duty. I bet we can get big ticket items like appliances and getting more foreign autos made here.


Swifty - 1/29/2017 at 04:00 PM

quote:
I think we need to be careful when predicting both winning and losing scenarios coming out of a renegotiated or trade with Mexico involving tariffs simply because most of which we were told leading up to the passage of NAFTA has not taken root, or in fact the opposite happened. Speaking to illegal immigration, NAFTA was seen as a way to boost the economy in Mexico and stem illegal immigration flows from their country. But the opposite happened, illegal immigration from Mexico soared.


This is from Wikipedia about the time when NAFTA was introduced.

quote:
Mexico's economy experienced a severe recession as a result of the peso's devaluation and the flight to safer investments. The country's GDP declined by 6.2% over the course of 1995. Mexico's financial sector bore the brunt of the crisis as banks collapsed, revealing low-quality assets and fraudulent lending practices. Thousands of mortgages went into default as Mexican citizens struggled to keep pace with rising interest rates, resulting in widespread repossession of houses.[13][14]

In addition to declining GDP growth, Mexico experienced hyperinflation and extreme poverty skyrocketed as real wages plummeted and unemployment nearly doubled. Prices increased by 35% in 1995. Nominal wages were sustained, but real wages fell by 25-35% over the same year. Unemployment climbed to 7.4% in 1995 from its pre-crisis level of 3.9% in 1994. In the formal sector alone, over one million people lost their jobs and average real wages decreased by 13.5% throughout 1995. Overall household incomes plummeted by 30% in the same year. Mexico's extreme poverty grew to 37% in 1996 from 21% in 1994, undoing the previous ten years of successful poverty reduction initiatives. The nation's poverty levels would not begin returning to normal until 2001.[15]:10


NAFTA gave corporate America access to cheap labor. The very minimal wages were used by many migrants to fund their way to the US. How could this have ever worked in favor of American labor? The whole premise of NAFTA was daft and it had nothing to do with the migrant outcome. What happened was totally predictable. My father-in-law was CEO of a company that had two maquiladoras in Mexico. Believe me this was about making money for corporations. There may have been some rhetoric that if we throw a few pesos at the peasants they will stay home, but this objective was not part of any policy.

What will happen as a result of Trump’s tirade is also totally predictable.

On the Central America issue

I said “Mexico has also stepped up security on its southern border and this has stopped the flow of Central Americans coming to the US.”

quote:
“Mexico has a lot of chips to play,” said Jorge Castañeda, a former foreign secretary who has staked out a combative approach.

Let Mr. Trump pull the United States out of Nafta, he argues. Instead of stopping Central American migrants at its southern border, Mexico should let them through on their way to the United States. “And let’s see if his wall keeps the terrorists out, because we won’t,” Mr. Castañeda added.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/24/business/economy/nafta-mexico-free-trade.html " target=_blank> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/24/business/economy/nafta-mexico-free-trade .html

You didn’t understand the point I was making. There is no way to stop migrants but one can stop the flow. Mexico simply tried to stop the flow by reducing the number of migrants. They monitored the trains that took Central Americans north. But through graft people do get through.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/04/mexico-torture-migrants-citiz ens-central-america

From today’s Washington Post which reiterates my point.

quote:
Outside of the economic realm, Mexico also has plenty of cards to play in negotiations with Trump. Last year, Mexico deported nearly 150,000 migrants bound for the United States, most of them from Central America. Without this cooperation, officials predict that the number of migrants turning up at the U.S. border could double.

“He has the Central American card, which he has mentioned, and it’s a very powerful card,” former foreign minister Jorge Castañeda said of Peña Nieto.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/in-fight-with-trump-mexico-has-plenty-of-ways-to-punch-back/2017/01/28/07d57d58-e4d0-11e6-a419-eefe8eff0835_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_mexico-645pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.703ed1ec6334 " target=_blank> https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/in-fight-with-trump-mexic o-has-plenty-of-ways-to-punch-back/2017/01/28/07d57d58-e4d0-11e6-a419-eefe8 eff0835_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-more-top-stories_mexico-645pm%3Ahomepage%2Fst ory&utm_term=.703ed1ec6334


pops42 - 1/29/2017 at 06:44 PM

Trump's bullsh!t is going to hurt americans, more than help them. and will probably cause a recession.


nebish - 1/29/2017 at 10:28 PM

quote:
NAFTA gave corporate America access to cheap labor. The very minimal wages were used by many migrants to fund their way to the US. How could this have ever worked in favor of American labor? The whole premise of NAFTA was daft and it had nothing to do with the migrant outcome. What happened was totally predictable. My father-in-law was CEO of a company that had two maquiladoras in Mexico. Believe me this was about making money for corporations. There may have been some rhetoric that if we throw a few pesos at the peasants they will stay home, but this objective was not part of any policy.


You won't find any disagreement from me here.

quote:
What will happen as a result of Trump’s tirade is also totally predictable.


Tell me what you are predicting then?


quote:
On the Central America issue

I said “Mexico has also stepped up security on its southern border and this has stopped the flow of Central Americans coming to the US.”

quote:“Mexico has a lot of chips to play,” said Jorge Castañeda, a former foreign secretary who has staked out a combative approach.

Let Mr. Trump pull the United States out of Nafta, he argues. Instead of stopping Central American migrants at its southern border, Mexico should let them through on their way to the United States. “And let’s see if his wall keeps the terrorists out, because we won’t,” Mr. Castañeda added.



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/24/business/economy/nafta-mexico-free-trade .html " target=_blank> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/24/business/economy/nafta-mexico-free-trade .html

You didn’t understand the point I was making. There is no way to stop migrants but one can stop the flow. Mexico simply tried to stop the flow by reducing the number of migrants. They monitored the trains that took Central Americans north. But through graft people do get through.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/04/mexico-torture-migrants-citiz ens-central-america

From today’s Washington Post which reiterates my point.

quote: Outside of the economic realm, Mexico also has plenty of cards to play in negotiations with Trump. Last year, Mexico deported nearly 150,000 migrants bound for the United States, most of them from Central America. Without this cooperation, officials predict that the number of migrants turning up at the U.S. border could double.

“He has the Central American card, which he has mentioned, and it’s a very powerful card,” former foreign minister Jorge Castañeda said of Peña Nieto.


Well, the article I linked stated that through August of 2016 there were 369,411 apprehensions and more than half were non-Mexicans (plus remember that the Chicago Tribune reported only 54% of illegals are captured). So through 8 months last year 150,000+ Central Americans were apprehended. It's certainly good for both nations that Mexico has stepped up their own illegal immigration enforcement. There is also a spike in unaccompanied children and families coming with children - 33,743 such people were apprehended first 6 months of fiscal year 2014 and 2015 combined, first six months of 2016 it was 32,117!

http://dailysignal.com/wp-content/uploads/Daily-Signal-Quote-Article_Border Graphs.png

The numbers remain a big problem for our nation, big problem for their nation. Status quo isn't good enough. More people need apprehended, more barriers and difficulties need to confront illegals trying to come here. More people need deported once we catch them, no lenience for children or families. They adapt to what our system does or doesn't do. They come now and just say they seek asylum, they try to game the system whatever way they can.


nebish - 1/29/2017 at 10:29 PM

quote:
Trump's bullsh!t is going to hurt americans, more than help them. and will probably cause a recession.


Easy to sit in the back seat and say what won't work.

I'm on record, you know what I believe and advocate. Tell us, what would you do, what do you believe?


pops42 - 1/29/2017 at 11:14 PM

So, do you think a trade war with mexico is good?, do you think a 20% tariff on mexican goods to pay for a useless, 25 Billion dollar border wall is a good idea?.

[Edited on 1/29/2017 by pops42]


Chain - 1/30/2017 at 12:04 AM

Haven't read through all the posts so forgive me if this is a stupid question already posed and answered. Has some one pointed out yet to Trump and his supporters that a tariff on Mexican goods is actually a tax on American consumers? In other words we Americans will pay for this useless and unneeded wall should Donnie's proposed 20% tariff actually be put in place.

Has anyone mentioned this?


Bhawk - 1/30/2017 at 12:22 AM

It is quickly becoming apparent that the division in America is now far, far beyond simple political disagreements.

The visions and understanding of what America itself is couldn't be more different, with the chasm deepening by the hour.


nebish - 1/30/2017 at 12:51 AM

As if Donald Trump is the only one who has talked of a tariff this past election.

quote:
His campaign says Sanders also would impose countervailing tariffs on imports from China and Japan “until they stop dumping steel into the United States and stop manipulating their currencies.”
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/03/31/bernie-sa nders-pledges-rewrite-disastrous-trade-deals/82473012/



Go ahead and read some of that article if you like. Could replace the name Bernie Sanders with the name Donald Trump and the trade policy would sound much the same.

quote:
Haven't read through all the posts so forgive me if this is a stupid question already posed and answered. Has some one pointed out yet to Trump and his supporters that a tariff on Mexican goods is actually a tax on American consumers? In other words we Americans will pay for this useless and unneeded wall should Donnie's proposed 20% tariff actually be put in place.

Has anyone mentioned this?


Nobody here has mentioned it, but lots of people in tv and print media are mentioning it. And I think it is a given that any cost or tax a business pays gets passed onto the consumer...minimum wage increases, added regulatory costs...unless somebody is under the impression a business is going to accept less margin then, yes any tax, tariff or increase in overhead costs will get passed onto the consumer.

The idea is to punish the goods being produced abroad and favor the ones that are produced domestically. The revenue the government raises from the border tax or be used to fund any number of government spending programs. Help offset trade adjustment assistance education subsidies, other social program costs that unemployed workers need. It can go towards anything. US infrastructure spending projects. Indeed it could go towards a border wall, if that is what the government sees fit.

The secure fence act of 2006 is already law. If they would've built it then it would've been much cheaper.

quote:
So, do you think a trade war with mexico is good?, do you think a 20% tariff on mexican goods to pay for a useless, 25 Billion dollar border wall is a good idea?.

[Edited on 1/29/2017 by pops42]


You answered my question with two of your own. All you ever do is throw **** on the wall and criticize others. How about telling us what you believe is wrong and how you would fix it? I'm sure you have some well reasoned positions you can articulate.


Bhawk - 1/30/2017 at 01:02 AM

quote:
The revenue the government raises from the border tax or be used to fund any number of government spending programs.


This is based on the premise that the world will always need us or want to do business with us. That might not always be the case.

quote:
Help offset trade adjustment assistance education subsidies, other social program costs that unemployed workers need.


Can you show me the current GOP that would be down with this? Are they in an alternate universe?


pops42 - 1/30/2017 at 01:23 AM

quote:
As if Donald Trump is the only one who has talked of a tariff this past election.

quote:
His campaign says Sanders also would impose countervailing tariffs on imports from China and Japan “until they stop dumping steel into the United States and stop manipulating their currencies.”
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2016/03/31/bernie-sa nders-pledges-rewrite-disastrous-trade-deals/82473012/



Go ahead and read some of that article if you like. Could replace the name Bernie Sanders with the name Donald Trump and the trade policy would sound much the same.

quote:
Haven't read through all the posts so forgive me if this is a stupid question already posed and answered. Has some one pointed out yet to Trump and his supporters that a tariff on Mexican goods is actually a tax on American consumers? In other words we Americans will pay for this useless and unneeded wall should Donnie's proposed 20% tariff actually be put in place.

Has anyone mentioned this?


Nobody here has mentioned it, but lots of people in tv and print media are mentioning it. And I think it is a given that any cost or tax a business pays gets passed onto the consumer...minimum wage increases, added regulatory costs...unless somebody is under the impression a business is going to accept less margin then, yes any tax, tariff or increase in overhead costs will get passed onto the consumer.

The idea is to punish the goods being produced abroad and favor the ones that are produced domestically. The revenue the government raises from the border tax or be used to fund any number of government spending programs. Help offset trade adjustment assistance education subsidies, other social program costs that unemployed workers need. It can go towards anything. US infrastructure spending projects. Indeed it could go towards a border wall, if that is what the government sees fit.

The secure fence act of 2006 is already law. If they would've built it then it would've been much cheaper.

quote:
So, do you think a trade war with mexico is good?, do you think a 20% tariff on mexican goods to pay for a useless, 25 Billion dollar border wall is a good idea?.

[Edited on 1/29/2017 by pops42]


You answered my question with two of your own. All you ever do is throw **** on the wall and criticize others. How about telling us what you believe is wrong and how you would fix it? I'm sure you have some well reasoned positions you can articulate.
Simple, forget the f$cking wall, and forget about getting rid of nafta [its not going to happen] its just posturing from trump. he will not deliver anything worthwhile to anybody but the super-wealthy. all he seems to worry about is how few people showed up to his inauguration. hows that?


nebish - 1/30/2017 at 02:24 AM

quote:
Simple, forget the f$cking wall, and forget about getting rid of nafta [its not going to happen] its just posturing from trump. he will not deliver anything worthwhile to anybody but the super-wealthy. all he seems to worry about is how few people showed up to his inauguration. hows that?


Not the depth I was hoping for, you are entitled to your skepticism. I just do not know what you want, like if Hillary had won, what would you be hoping she did to address the trade and outsourcing problem? I assume you feel there is a problem here because you commented about TPP something to the effect "bad for most of us".

But anyway, Bhawk's post quoted below touches on some of the problems of not delivering.

quote:
quote:
quote: Help offset trade adjustment assistance education subsidies, other social program costs that unemployed workers need.




quote:
Can you show me the current GOP that would be down with this? Are they in an alternate universe?



As much as people like to paint Trump as just your regular old Republican, nothing new, same old same old - that just flatly is false when it comes to trade and favoring US labor. I mean compare his position to our least favorite Republicans from the past, Trump is in stark contrast to the GOP as we know/knew it.

So then, really I don't know who can be faithfully counted on in the Republican party to support Trump's trade agenda - early 20th century Republicans were all about tariffs and protection, but these modern day Republicans have been bought and owned by corporate and foreign interests, as too many Democrats have too.

I actually don't know how he delivers because I don't think he will get enough people in his party to support him. I had envisioned that Trump might get half of the Republicans and half of the Democrats to go along with new trade deals that put workers ahead of multinational corporations, but the more he pisses Democrats off, the less likely they will want to work with him on anything...even if it is in their interest. I don't know we are just 1 week in and Congress hasn't had a chance to conduct much business yet.

No, I can't show you the current GOP being down with it. However, say what you will about the myriad of reasons Trump won the election, this populist belief against decades of trade agreements that negatively impacted their lives and their communities and enriched foreign countries at their expense, that is a very real and tangible and provable thing. The Republicans I think have an opportunity to flip a whole segment of the voting landscape to their favor, organized labor. If Republicans can make moves closer to them, not just talking, but actually giving them something that they feel is in their interest, it is a huge political win and depending on your outlook of the nation, a win for America as well. That could be the only come to Jesus moment I think the Republicans might be having when it comes to doing trade the Trump way.

Time will tell.

As to your other point about the world needing our business? I think atleast in our lifetimes the American market and the American consumer are going to remain quite necessary for any company domestic or abroad. I guess you could say that China and India someday will be more important, and they might be. The American consumer plays a dominant role currently, let's not throw it away, let's use it to our advantage and get more of what is sold here, made here.


Sang - 1/30/2017 at 04:57 AM

Not sure where I saw this, might even had been one of the threads here. After Trump had his meeting with business leaders and the union, I saw a quote from a businessman who said something to the effect that 'we build factories for 40-50 years of life - we aren't going to move factories because one party comes into power - the policies could quickly change in 4 years. We plan for the future for our company.'

So Trump can say what he want and may have some influence, but I don't see a big rush of factories coming back... just a lot of added costs to consumers.....


OriginalGoober - 1/30/2017 at 02:13 PM

These are difficult issues that cant be reversed overnight but the negativity and pushback from Trump opponents to plans to shift things is nuts. I dont see why Americans should accept a porous border and a net outflow of jobs. Its a race to the bottom and we have to make changs that will benefit the American worker. If it means i have to pay 20% more for guac and tequila, so be it.


LeglizHemp - 1/30/2017 at 04:20 PM

quote:
If it means i have to pay 20% more for guac and tequila, so be it.


but not health care.......lol


Sang - 1/30/2017 at 05:33 PM

quote:
These are difficult issues that cant be reversed overnight but the negativity and pushback from Trump opponents to plans to shift things is nuts. I dont see why Americans should accept a porous border and a net outflow of jobs. Its a race to the bottom and we have to make changs that will benefit the American worker. If it means i have to pay 20% more for guac and tequila, so be it.



It's not a porous border - but believe what you want - I'm sure that $20 billion dollar wall will solve all our problems..... you probably have to worry more about Asians taking your job than Hispanics.... funny that the mayor of Berlin is telling Trump not to build the wall.....


Sang - 1/30/2017 at 10:40 PM

A couple of articles from the Chicago Tribune from the last few days:

The folly of Trump's 'buy American and hire American'

Now that the campaign is over, Donald Trump is no longer willing to fake it. Last year, he insisted, "I love free trade. But I want to make great deals." In his inaugural address, he dropped the masquerade.

"We must protect our borders from the ravages of other countries making our products, stealing our companies and destroying our jobs," he said. "Protection will lead to great prosperity and strength." His formula is simple: "Buy American and hire American." In his vision of the future, we may export but we will never import.

Trump is never more certain than when he is completely clueless. The truth is that protection against foreign trade leads away from prosperity and strength. A country that deprives itself of foreign goods is doing to itself what an enemy might try to do in wartime — cut it off from outside commerce. It is volunteering to impoverish itself.

Countries don't "ravage" us when they make "our" products; they help us. At the risk of belaboring the obvious, the essence of trade — foreign or domestic — is that it makes both buyer and seller better off. Otherwise, they wouldn't bother.

But preventing such mutually agreeable transactions is Trump's dream. Already he has announced he will renegotiate NAFTA and has walked away from the Trans-Pacific Partnership, a 12-nation deal that President Barack Obama signed but Congress had yet to approve.

Trump may promise "great deals," but he is likely to get — and would probably be content with — no deals. What foreign government will rush to sign an agreement stipulating that our companies will only "buy American and hire American"?

His belief that international commerce is bad for Americans and protection is good for us is not a theory but an ancient superstition. One of the most irrefutable insights of economics is that if a country can buy something abroad for less than the cost of making it at home, it's better off buying it. That transaction allows citizens to consume more for each dollar spent. It makes them richer.

The United States could grow all its fresh fruits and vegetables rather than buy some from Mexico — just as Mexico could grow all the corn and soybeans it needs rather than purchase from us. But the costs would be higher on either side. Open trade allows people in each country to eat more and better.

It also allows each economy to produce more. Trump fantasizes that American companies and workers would be better off without foreign competition. But the steel that goes into American cars and the lumber that goes into American houses would be more expensive if it all had to be produced within our borders. In industries deprived of imported supplies, prices would rise, sales would decline and employment would shrink.

The U.S. auto industry has plants in Mexico that make cars sold in the U.S., to the horror of the new president. But if he guts NAFTA, those jobs won't all move here.

A study by the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Mich., said that American firms that ship car parts to Mexico could lose out to suppliers in other countries. Overall, scrapping the accord and setting high tariffs would destroy 31,000 jobs in the U.S. automotive sector.

Trump defends his protectionism by asserting that "every decision on trade" should "be made to benefit American workers and American families." But free trade does exactly that. It's the classic example of a policy that benefits the many while harming the few.

Only about 14,000 Americans are employed making footwear. About 324 million Americans, on the other hand, wear shoes. Putting up barriers to foreign-made shoes would injure far more American workers and families than it would help.

It would also be a drain on the economy. When President Obama slapped heavy tariffs on Chinese tires, the Peterson Institute for International Economics found, he saved no more than 1,200 jobs — at an annual cost to consumers of $900,000 per job.

Spending nearly a million dollars to save a job that typically pays $41,000 a year is not a recipe for prosperity. It's the equivalent of selling $20 bills for a dollar apiece. Trump's dream of "buy American and hire American" would work exactly the same way.

Trump, of course, is a business magnate whose companies have sold products made everywhere from China to Honduras. In this case, wisdom lies in following his example, not his advice.

Steve Chapman, a member of the Tribune Editorial Board, blogs at www.chicagotribune.com/chapman

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chapman/ct-trump-clueless-trade- jobs-trade-nafta-perspec-0126-20170125-column.html


Sang - 1/30/2017 at 10:42 PM

Daniel W. Drezner
Special to The Washington Post

Trump administration needs to get up to speed on the auto industry

On Tuesday, President Donald Trump met with the chief executives of Detroit's Big Three auto manufacturers. You can vaguely sense what he was looking for from them when he tweeted:

“Will be meeting at 9:00 with top automobile executives concerning jobs in America. I want new plants to be built here for cars sold here!”

The CEOs of the auto firms said nice things about Trump afterward. But buried in the Detroit Free Press’ write-up of the meeting were these interesting paragraphs:

“In recent months, automakers have announced plans to invest billions of new dollars in the U.S. and create thousands of new jobs — developments for which Trump has, at least in part, taken credit.

“However, in nearly every case those investments were either in the planning stages for months or were made possible by changing market conditions, though (Ford CEO Mark) Fields has said that a belief that Trump will improve the business climate in the U.S. has also played a role in Ford’s decisions.”

Apparently, it's even more complicated than that. Bloomberg News reports that given where the United States is in the current business cycle, the last thing auto manufacturers want to do is go on a huge domestic investment splurge:

“New assembly plants cost General Motors Co., Ford Motor Co. or Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV about $1 billion — the sort of investment companies look to avoid making as a market peaks. And while factories boost jobs, economic gains from building them are being undercut by automation and pressure to compete with lower-wage countries including Mexico.

“ ‘This is the nightmare scenario for auto companies, which are being asked to make huge capital investments right before a slowdown in sales,’ said Dan Luria, an analyst who has advised the United Auto Workers union. ‘It seems like hardly the time to spend billions on new plants.’ …

“After the U.S. auto market's 68 percent surge since 2009, sales will be roughly flat through 2020, researcher LMC Automotive said in a report last week. After setting a record with nearly 17.6 million vehicles last year, the industry will keep coming up short of that level through the end of the decade, LMC said.”

Then there's the awkward issue of what the Big Three will do if Trump really does try to renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement with higher trade barriers against Mexico. Mexico is an attractive manufacturing hub in part because of lower wages but also because of its plethora of free-trade agreements with other countries. Unless and until Trump's trade negotiators can get duty-free access to the same number of countries that Mexico can, it's not terribly logical for auto manufacturers to relocate their plants to the United States.

Trump’s economic vision seems to be that any car bought in the United States should be made in the United States. But as a previous Detroit Free Press story noted, it's just not economically feasible to produce, say, the Chevrolet Cruze in the United States:

“There probably wouldn't be a Cruze hatchback if GM had to build it in the United States. The Cruze hatch is the poster child for why interconnected global manufacturing footprints make automakers stronger. Chevy sold about 184,300 Cruze sedans in America last year — all built in Lordstown, Ohio. It brought 4,500 hatchbacks in from Mexico. GM wouldn't have invested millions of dollars for that few vehicles at its plant in Lordstown, Ohio, but it makes sense to build them in Mexico, where that body style is popular and they sell well. Without Mexican production, the 4,500 Americans who bought Cruze hatchbacks might be lost to other car brands.”

I bring all of this up because it illustrates the abject lack of knowledge that Trump and his trade/economic advisers seem to display when it comes to the automobile sector. And this is during an economic upswing.

Imagine what happens if the economy starts to run out of steam.

Washington Post

Daniel W. Drezner is a professor of international politics at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University.

Copyright © 2017, Chicago Tribune

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-trump-auto-industr y-detroit-20170129-story.html


Of course, both of these are opinion pieces/commentary


LeglizHemp - 1/30/2017 at 10:55 PM

i posted this once before.......

Mercantilism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Mercantilism.html


nebish - 1/31/2017 at 05:41 AM

quote:
Not sure where I saw this, might even had been one of the threads here. After Trump had his meeting with business leaders and the union, I saw a quote from a businessman who said something to the effect that 'we build factories for 40-50 years of life - we aren't going to move factories because one party comes into power - the policies could quickly change in 4 years. We plan for the future for our company.'

So Trump can say what he want and may have some influence, but I don't see a big rush of factories coming back... just a lot of added costs to consumers.....


Lots of things go into it. Trade law in this country has been steady, the only changes have been up to this point, more trade deals with more nations giving US companies freedom to easily move and operate where they wish.

Nobody pitched NAFTA as a means for a company like SquareD (make electrical breakers/fuses, switches, etc) to close manufacturing plants here, build a plant in Mexico and then sell the exact same stuff at US stores that was once made in USA, but now comes from Mexico. Maybe this was the corporate dream all along, but that is not what we were told would happen.

And the thing is, you don't always save money with a foreign made good. When you keep up with this stuff and look at all the labels where it is made, you see the old stock, you see the new stock and you see the price is the same...somebody isn't passing that savings along.

I have lots of examples for lots of things on this issue.

eLittle over a year ago I was buying some Peerless mounts to put a TV on the wall because they were made in USA (only one of two companies I found that made them here). I was buying them from a local small TV shop. Some months later I needed another, so I called George up and said I need another and he tells me "no problem, the price went up, but I will give you the old price", I go to pick it up and it is in a new shiny cardboard box, kind of a give away on country, packaging can tip me off alot. The old ones were just plain brown cardboard box with a logo and a USA flag and made in statement. The new one, yup, made in China. Price wasn't any lower. Maybe old George was making more money on it, he says he wasn't. Maybe the distributor was making more money, maybe Peerless themselves was making more money. One things is for certain, the savings did not get passed on to the consumer. And this is not isolated case. I see it alot when a brand outsources, they don't pass the savings on to the consumer.

Just start paying attention to things. I walk around the store with my wife and all I do is look at labels and what they have on their shelf. Hardware stores where ever. Need some drill bits? How about Made in USA and made in China drill bits the same price? Yeah, right next to each other 3/8 drill bit made in USA same price as a 7/16 drill bit made in China, old stock vs new stock. They changed suppliers or sources, but the prices stayed the same.

Some times it will cost more, other times it won't. Like I said before, nothing is true across the board. And in my jeans example, a US producer of a good that can now compete on a level playing field can increase sales, expand distribution, buy materials cheaper, maybe lower their price. Are we talking in circles on this stuff or do you not read things I reply to you. I know sometimes we talk past eachother here, both trying to make our points by glossing over someone else's. I think it was in the Liberal/Russia thread from a week or two ago I took up the higher prices thing.

So anyway...

big rush of companies coming back? I'm not sure, maybe. Certainly not at once, true. What I'd hope is we can change new investments in manufacturing plants from there (any foreign country) to here (USA any state, take your pick no matter to me). It won't be all at once and surely they are waiting to see what policy might change, see if their is a penalty or reward for doing so. But they will make their investments where it is wise for them to make it and if we can convince them that they are better off here (by carrot or stick) it certainly could have an effect.

How about the Stanley CEO recently:

quote:
"It’s going to be advisable to have more manufacturing in the U.S,"
http://fortune.com/2017/01/05/stanley-black-decker-trump/



I don't know exactly why the Stanley CEO would feel this way, but whatever the reason I like the sentiment. I want more foreign and US companies to feel that way, and if they think it is in their financial interest to invest here and make more things here that is ultimately a good thing for our country.

quote:
quote:
If it means i have to pay 20% more for guac and tequila, so be it.



quote:

but not health care.......lol



Well, the difference is one can avoid Mexican produced goods if they choose, there is little I can think of that Mexico has a monopoly on. China? That would be harder, but Mexico...if you didn't want to subject yourself to potentially higher priced goods because of the tariff, then you could find substitutes for alot of things made in Mexico that you could buy from another country to not subject yourself to that produce with a tariff on it.

Thing with this compared to healthcare, and I get the playful jab, but here, the consumer can choose to buy products from one country or another, pay more or pay less, whatever you know. But with healthcare, the options are limited (or even singular depending where you live) and you have to buy it...and when it keeps going up and you get less in return for it, easier to have a negative attitude towards that compared to say buying a widget from Mexico, or not buying it, or finding it made somewhere else.

And assuming a duty or tariff gets passed onto the consumer, as it likely would, it is the exact same thing as mandated minimum wage increases, but that cost impact has a much broader effect across the entire economy, and not just for minimum wage workers because some higher wage workers often have their wage as some step up from the minimum wage, so then it has an effect of creating raises across much of the workforce - which if it leads employers to shrink their workforce due to higher wage requirement, then that is ultimately a bad thing.

It all gets passed on one way or the other. But people subscribing to a certain side of the political philosophy seem to push the living wage thing without a hint of what impact is has on good and service prices, but talk of a tariff getting passed on, why.... it leads to a recession!

I'll check out the news articles tomorrow. Super tired right now.


Sang - 1/31/2017 at 06:35 AM

quote:

Some times it will cost more, other times it won't. Like I said before, nothing is true across the board. And in my jeans example, a US producer of a good that can now compete on a level playing field can increase sales, expand distribution, buy materials cheaper, maybe lower their price. Are we talking in circles on this stuff or do you not read things I reply to you. I know sometimes we talk past each other here, both trying to make our points by glossing over someone else's. I think it was in the Liberal/Russia thread from a week or two ago I took up the higher prices thing.
.



Not sure if the comment about not reading things and talking past someone was directed at me, I just saw 2 articles in my paper that were about the topic you wanted to discuss and I posted them without comment, other than they were opinions/commentary. I didn't say I believed everything in them, just thought I would post some other viewpoints that are out there about this topic.


nebish - 1/31/2017 at 02:11 PM

quote:

Some times it will cost more, other times it won't. Like I said before, nothing is true across the board. And in my jeans example, a US producer of a good that can now compete on a level playing field can increase sales, expand distribution, buy materials cheaper, maybe lower their price. Are we talking in circles on this stuff or do you not read things I reply to you. I know sometimes we talk past each other here, both trying to make our points by glossing over someone else's. I think it was in the Liberal/Russia thread from a week or two ago I took up the higher prices thing.

.


quote:


Not sure if the comment about not reading things and talking past someone was directed at me, I just saw 2 articles in my paper that were about the topic you wanted to discuss and I posted them without comment, other than they were opinions/commentary. I didn't say I believed everything in them, just thought I would post some other viewpoints that are out there about this topic.


Hi Sang. The second part of that was just kind of a general glossing over people seem to do on other's post, myself included sometime.

The first part was addressing you saying that you thought it would just add more cost to consumers, which is a concern you raised previously as well, which I tried to counter. Now, just because I say something may or may not happen isn't reason enough for you to change your mind - I mean who am I just somebody on an internet forum. But if I didn't make my point well or clear enough I am always willing to take another crack at it.

I don't always have to be right and the other side doesn't always have to be wrong. I come here because I enjoy it and hopefully we can all raise a point from time to time that others gain a bit of a different perspective from.


nebish - 1/31/2017 at 02:24 PM

quote:
i posted this once before.......

Mercantilism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Mercantilism.html


An irony I find is that Asian countries like Korea, Japan and to some degree China all engage or have engaged in mercantilistic policies to build up their nations, build up their industry - much to their benefit, all while eroding our industrial base as we embraced free trade without barriers coming into our country (with rare exception for dumping).

I do want a strong "state". I want a strong and financially healthy United States of America, which I see our population and communities as a whole benefiting from. My views on trade are a means to that end.


Sang - 1/31/2017 at 08:10 PM

quote:
quote:

Some times it will cost more, other times it won't. Like I said before, nothing is true across the board. And in my jeans example, a US producer of a good that can now compete on a level playing field can increase sales, expand distribution, buy materials cheaper, maybe lower their price. Are we talking in circles on this stuff or do you not read things I reply to you. I know sometimes we talk past each other here, both trying to make our points by glossing over someone else's. I think it was in the Liberal/Russia thread from a week or two ago I took up the higher prices thing.

.


quote:


Not sure if the comment about not reading things and talking past someone was directed at me, I just saw 2 articles in my paper that were about the topic you wanted to discuss and I posted them without comment, other than they were opinions/commentary. I didn't say I believed everything in them, just thought I would post some other viewpoints that are out there about this topic.


Hi Sang. The second part of that was just kind of a general glossing over people seem to do on other's post, myself included sometime.

The first part was addressing you saying that you thought it would just add more cost to consumers, which is a concern you raised previously as well, which I tried to counter. Now, just because I say something may or may not happen isn't reason enough for you to change your mind - I mean who am I just somebody on an internet forum. But if I didn't make my point well or clear enough I am always willing to take another crack at it.

I don't always have to be right and the other side doesn't always have to be wrong. I come here because I enjoy it and hopefully we can all raise a point from time to time that others gain a bit of a different perspective from.



My point was that if tariffs are enforced, somebody will pay for it - and according to what you said above about companies 'not passing along the savings', I don't see anybody but the consumer paying for it.

I will try to talk to one of my neighbors - a big Obama hater and Trump lover - who owns a plant in Mexico for the product his company produces. I'll get his take on what he thinks of the tariffs and what he would do.....


nebish - 1/31/2017 at 08:42 PM

quote:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chapman/ct-trump-clueless- trade- jobs-trade-nafta-perspec-0126-20170125-column.html


For those singing the virtues of free trade, they better not be the ones up in arms about the wage gap between blue collar and white collar workers. And they better not be the ones with all those percentages thrown around comparing CEO pay to average worker pay. When and why did this great divide in wages begin? You can thank outsourcing work to foreign countries...companies being able to produce cheaper, pay workers less, make more profit and where does the profit go - alot of places, but one place it goes is to the high (or disproportionate) management salaries? Other people can make this case better than I can, but opening cheap labor markets for US corporations to exploit is a driving factor of this...absent from the story there. Looking at past articles written by Mr Chapman...has he ever said anything positive about Trump or about his proposals?



quote:
Daniel W. Drezner
Special to The Washington Post

Trump administration needs to get up to speed on the auto industry


quote:
Trump’s economic vision seems to be that any car bought in the United States should be made in the United States. But as a previous Detroit Free Press story noted, it's just not economically feasible to produce, say, the Chevrolet Cruze in the United States:

“There probably wouldn't be a Cruze hatchback if GM had to build it in the United States. The Cruze hatch is the poster child for why interconnected global manufacturing footprints make automakers stronger. Chevy sold about 184,300 Cruze sedans in America last year — all built in Lordstown, Ohio. It brought 4,500 hatchbacks in from Mexico. GM wouldn't have invested millions of dollars for that few vehicles at its plant in Lordstown, Ohio, but it makes sense to build them in Mexico, where that body style is popular and they sell well. Without Mexican production, the 4,500 Americans who bought Cruze hatchbacks might be lost to other car brands.”

I bring all of this up because it illustrates the abject lack of knowledge that Trump and his trade/economic advisers seem to display when it comes to the automobile sector. And this is during an economic upswing.


That part in bold and underlined there, that is wrong, Trump was right in his tweets, it is all illustrated below. GM had to come out and correct themselves. Trust me there are Mexican built Chevy Cruze sedans on dealer lots. Lordstown just down the road a bit from me, you can imagine the controversy.

AND the 4500 Cruze hatchbacks sold in 2016 is misleading, so is the statement that if they had to be made in Lordstown the model may not have ever been produced.

Because the hatchback model just began shipping in 4th qrt 2016, a very late arriving model for sale. Let's see what sales are over an entire fiscal or calendar year. Ford Focus and Mazda 3 hatchbacks sell 100,000 models a year combined per year, so there is sales potential there for this new Cruze model. Using early sales from initial shipments at the end of the year and using it to say that not enough sales exist to make the car in the US is at best misleading and at worst a agenda based lie. Maybe the Trib needs to get more up to speed on the auto industry?

quote:
http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/19/news/economy/donald-trump-chevy-cruze -mexico/

Trump was right about Mexican-made GM cars
by Heather Long @byHeatherLong January 19, 2017: 10:03 AM ET
Can Trump take credit for new jobs?
Donald Trump doesn't like things made in Mexico.

On January 3, he slammed GM, one of America's big three automakers, for manufacturing cars in Mexico to sell across the border in the U.S. He focused his firepower on the Chevy Cruze, one of GM's signature small cars.

"General Motors is sending Mexican made model of Chevy Cruze to U.S. car dealers-tax free across border. Make in U.S.A. or pay big border tax!" Trump tweeted at the time.

A huge debate ensued: Did Trump have his facts right? GM (GM) was quick to say no. The company issued a statement claiming it makes all Cruze sedans sold in the U.S. at a big factory in Lordstown, Ohio. (Read the full statement at the end of this article).

But it turns out, what Trump tweeted was true.

Right now in the United States, there are Chevy Cruze sedans for sale at GM dealerships that were made in Mexico.

In fact, CNNMoney even found a Mexican-made Cruze sedan for sale at a GM dealership in Lordstown, Ohio.

No wonder workers at the GM Assembly Plant in Lordstown are livid. The plant is facing 1,200 layoffs this Friday, the day of Trump's inauguration.

GM told the workers there were too many Cruze sedans on car lots. They weren't selling, so GM had to cut some of the 4,500 workers at the Lordstown plant.

"It's the ultimate insult: Chevy Cruzes with Mexican VIN numbers shipped to Lordstown," says Heather Lexso, a worker at the GM plant in Lordstown. She is losing her job putting carpets in the trunk as GM eliminates the entire third shift.

Related: 2,000 GM workers to lose jobs on Trump Inauguration Day

Mexican-made Cruzes are for sale, even in Lordstown

Lexso is referring to the ID number every car gets when it's build. It's known as the Vehicle Identification Number, or VIN. Car analyst and blogger E.W. Niedermeyer was the first to point out GM wasn't being totally honest. He explained that any Chevy Cruze made in Ohio has a number that begins with a "1," which is the VIN country code for the U.S. Any Chevy Cruze made in Mexico has a number that begins with "3," the VIN country code for Mexico.

Using that information, Niedermeyer found numerous examples of Chevy Cruze sedans for sale online that were made in Mexico. His discovery caught the attention of Car and Driver magazine, which confirmed there was a 2017 Chevy Cruze sedan for sale in Portland, Oregon that was clearly made in Mexico, not Ohio.

Over the weekend, CNNMoney traveled to Lordstown and stopped by the main GM dealership there known as Spitzer Chevrolet Lordstown. It's located about 5 miles from the factory where Cruze sedans are made and workers are losing jobs.

Spitzer had about 30 Cruze sedans for sale on its main lot. Sure enough, CNNMoney found that one had a Mexican VIN number. The sale tag on the window of the car even says "Final Assembly Point: Ramos Arizpe, Mexico."

Related: GM, Chrysler have more workers in Mexico than Ford
chevy cruze mexico 2
The tag on the window of a 2017 Chevy Cruze sedan for sale at the Spitzer Chevrolet dealedership in Lordstown, Ohio.

GM confirms Mexican-made Cruze sedans

This week, GM admitted to CNNMoney that at least 8,400 Chevy Cruze sedans were built in Mexico at the end of last year and brought to the U.S. for sale. It's a small fraction of the 188,876 Cruzes the company says it sold in the U.S. last year, but the Mexican imports did happen.

"A small number of Mexico-made Chevrolet Cruze sedans were produced in 2016 for sale in the U.S. This supplemental production ended in December. Lordstown is now the sole source for the Cruze sedans," said GM spokesman Tom Wickham.

The frustration in Lordstown is palpable. Everyone is talking about Trump's tweet and how it's true that Mexican-made Cruzes are being sold there. They hope Trump will save their 1,200 jobs.

"How messed up is it that someone in Lordstown could be driving a Mexican-made Cruze?" says Robert Sheridan, another GM worker about to lose his job.

What GM sent CNNMoney on January 3:

"General Motors manufactures the Chevrolet Cruze sedan in Lordstown, Ohio. All Chevrolet Cruze sedans sold in the U.S. are built in GM's assembly plant in Lordstown, Ohio. GM builds the Chevrolet Cruze hatchback for global markets in Mexico, with a small number sold in the U.S."

What GM sent CNNMoney on January 17:

"A small number of Mexico-made Chevrolet Cruze sedans were produced in 2016 for sale in the U.S. This supplemental production ended in December. Lordstown is now the sole source for the Cruze sedans."



Finally, on the auto issue, we need only look at the explosion of growth Korean built autos have had in our market. Sure Kia and Hyundai throw us a bone and build a couple of their models here, while importing 3/4 of what they sell here. Good for Koreans, bad for US workers.

I'll be visiting the Cleveland autoshow end of this month. My favorite thing to do is look at MSRP and country of origin data on window stickers. Tells you alot about what is going on in the auto industry, where things come from. Last year I saw a large number of Korean tires on US branded cars and trucks. First time I had saw such a thing. You know normally you'd have Goodyear, Firestone, Cooper, Michelin, the normal household type names, some of those are US companies, some of those are made in USA, some are not. But everyone has to watch out now, here come the Korean tires ready to race the big boys to the bottom. Wonder if we'll be seeing more job losses at US tire plants as a result?


nebish - 1/31/2017 at 09:05 PM

Here is an excerpt from a story relating to Ford halting the 1.6 billion facility in Mexico:

quote:
The loss to the economy, Eaves calculates, could run into the hundreds of millions of dollars, and maybe even into the billions, over the next five years, as manufacturing, contracting and indirect jobs all fall short of plans. Officials say they are still analyzing the economic impact of the Ford decision.


Hmm, sure would be nice to have hundreds of millions of dollars or maybe into the billions over the next five years as manufacturing, contracting and indirect jobs here in the US wouldn't it?

That is what they are saying the loss of that plant cost Mexico, and all of that shot in the arm of the surrounding economy, but it certainly illustrates the overall impact the auto industry has when they decide where they want to build their next plant.

The US didn't gain a new plant in this Ford decision, but did get some investment to expand an existing facility and 700 created jobs. I'll take that as a good trade off for us.

In that article it also states:

quote:
Ford's chief executive Mark Fields said market forces had swayed Ford's decision to not build the San Luis Potosi plant, with low gas prices and low interest rates hampering small car sales.

Fields also noted President-elect Donald Trump's promises to make the US more competitive by lowering taxes and easing regulations.

"We believe these tax and regulatory reforms are necessary to boost US competitiveness," Fields said
, speaking in Flat Rock, Michigan, where the assembly plant is located.

During his presidential campaign, Trump said that if elected, he would not allow Ford to open its plant in Mexico and threatened to add tariffs to any vehicles Ford imported from the US' southern neighbor.

http://www.dw.com/en/ford-to-scrap-16-billion-plant-in-mexico-as-trump-targ ets-general-motors/a-36993603


Should Trump take credit for that? He can't take credit for "market forces", but he certainly could take credit for painting a picture of a more competitive industry with less tax and regulations - then the whole tariff boarder tax thing is just there in the corner, play a role? Really it may not matter in light of the tax and regulatory changes Ford CEO is hoping for, which Trump has stated.


nebish - 1/31/2017 at 09:09 PM

quote:
My point was that if tariffs are enforced, somebody will pay for it - and according to what you said above about companies 'not passing along the savings', I don't see anybody but the consumer paying for it.


Or it might cost Mexico really...cost them jobs. If consumers buy products from other countries instead, or if ultimately companies look to locate somewhere else to evade the tariff. There is a financial cost with the tax being applied to the product and passed along and then there are other costs that the country of Mexico could bear.

quote:
I will try to talk to one of my neighbors - a big Obama hater and Trump lover - who owns a plant in Mexico for the product his company produces. I'll get his take on what he thinks of the tariffs and what he would do.....


Great, I look forward to it. If he is anti-Trump on this issue, spin it around like you are pro-Trump on it, that sounds like it would be a hoot of a conversation!


Sang - 1/31/2017 at 09:27 PM

"During his presidential campaign, Trump said that if elected, he would not allow Ford to open its plant in Mexico and threatened to add tariffs to any vehicles Ford imported from the US' southern neighbor."

So this is where some of the wheels fall off for me.... he would not allow a company to open a plant in Mexico? How? Why?

Republicans and conservatives usually go nuts about the government (or president) 'picking winners and losers' and hampering market forces. How is this different?


nebish - 1/31/2017 at 09:40 PM

quote:
"During his presidential campaign, Trump said that if elected, he would not allow Ford to open its plant in Mexico and threatened to add tariffs to any vehicles Ford imported from the US' southern neighbor."

So this is where some of the wheels fall off for me.... he would not allow a company to open a plant in Mexico? How? Why?

Republicans and conservatives usually go nuts about the government (or president) 'picking winners and losers' and hampering market forces. How is this different?


It's Trump...everything is different...LOL.

He isn't subscribing to any kind of ideological view on trade, that much is clear. If the bought and paid for suits in Washington who do listen to their lobbyists and corporate puppet masters follow Trump time will tell.

Everything is different.


nebish - 2/13/2017 at 02:11 AM

I took some photos at Target today until my wife told me to stop I was embarrassing her.

Made in USA bandages cheaper than made in Brazil band-aids






Made in USA bags cheaper than made in Canada (beware of Zip Lock bags made in Thailand which I have increasingly seen).





pops42 - 2/13/2017 at 04:21 PM

quote:
quote:
"During his presidential campaign, Trump said that if elected, he would not allow Ford to open its plant in Mexico and threatened to add tariffs to any vehicles Ford imported from the US' southern neighbor."

So this is where some of the wheels fall off for me.... he would not allow a company to open a plant in Mexico? How? Why?

Republicans and conservatives usually go nuts about the government (or president) 'picking winners and losers' and hampering market forces. How is this different?


It's Trump...everything is different...LOL.

He isn't subscribing to any kind of ideological view on trade, that much is clear. If the bought and paid for suits in Washington who do listen to their lobbyists and corporate puppet masters follow Trump time will tell.

Everything is different.
will trump stop walmart from buying all their goods from china???.


nebish - 2/13/2017 at 04:36 PM

quote:
will trump stop walmart from buying all their goods from china???.


...or Home Depot, or Best Buy, or your local hardware store, or any store...

There is no pure store, big box or otherwise when it comes to products from China or anywhere.

The Walmart example...if I have time I would like to post the number of made in USA products that can be found at Walmart. I would bet anyone that I could easily find dozens upon dozens, perhaps even hundreds (when adding all up all individual skus) of made in USA products at Walmart. I guarantee it, wanna bet? Trust me, I look at origin labels like it is my job. You go do it. Go to your Walmart. You would be surprised how much you can buy at Walmart that is made in USA.


pops42 - 2/13/2017 at 04:59 PM

quote:
quote:
will trump stop walmart from buying all their goods from china???.


...or Home Depot, or Best Buy, or your local hardware store, or any store...

There is no pure store, big box or otherwise when it comes to products from China or anywhere.

The Walmart example...if I have time I would like to post the number of made in USA products that can be found at Walmart. I would bet anyone that I could easily find dozens upon dozens, perhaps even hundreds (when adding all up all individual skus) of made in USA products at Walmart. I guarantee it, wanna bet? Trust me, I look at origin labels like it is my job. You go do it. Go to your Walmart. You would be surprised how much you can buy at Walmart that is made in USA.
If trump insisted they sell "Made in USA" only, they would ALL close their doors.


nebish - 2/13/2017 at 07:15 PM

quote:
quote:
quote:
will trump stop walmart from buying all their goods from china???.


...or Home Depot, or Best Buy, or your local hardware store, or any store...

There is no pure store, big box or otherwise when it comes to products from China or anywhere.

The Walmart example...if I have time I would like to post the number of made in USA products that can be found at Walmart. I would bet anyone that I could easily find dozens upon dozens, perhaps even hundreds (when adding all up all individual skus) of made in USA products at Walmart. I guarantee it, wanna bet? Trust me, I look at origin labels like it is my job. You go do it. Go to your Walmart. You would be surprised how much you can buy at Walmart that is made in USA.


If trump insisted they sell "Made in USA" only, they would ALL close their doors.


That just isn't realistic. Who has ever said that Walmart or any retailer must only sell made in USA exclusively? Nobody has. That is not a position that Donald Trump has insisted or even hinted upon. Why are we going down that path? What I think we can do as consumers and what our country should do in policy is incentivize more goods and services being made and originating here, locating production and job centers here and favor the products made in our own communities with our own workers instead of those made abroad. I have been consistent on that since I began posting in these forums many years ago.

What I did in reply to your initial post this morning is to dispel this myth that everything at Walmart is made in China, or somehow Walmart is worse in this respect compared to other box store retailers. My point was that you could do quite well buying a large variety household and garage items at Walmart, not to mention the grocery aspect or the cosmetic/personal hygiene departments of their stores that are chock full of USA items.

Back to your question, currently the availability and capacity to fill an entire big box retail store with exclusively made in USA product does not exist.

That is not to mean that the product in question may not exist elsewhere, just that for a variety of reasons, if such product does exist is often isn't found in your neighborhood box store. Still, it is true you can find alot of USA product in these box stores, and it is true that you may not even realize the product you are buying is imported while passing up a US produced item next to it on the shelf. And sometimes that USA item is cheaper than the import. And it is also true that if you can't find a specific item in your local store that is made in the USA, chances are with some time and effort you can find and buy that product online or elsewhere. But it is also true that some items just are not made or assembled here and then it adds to the impossibility of having a retailer exclusively rely upon domestically made items for their shelves.

I'm surprised that this concept gets such pushback from people falling closer to the left side of the political spectrum. I guess Trump is making those more liberal minded people free market capitalist in favor of outsourcing all of a sudden? Before it was the Republicans and free trade, free market conservatives, you know the business interests, who oppose efforts and fought policy and initiatives for more USA made policy. Now the other side wants to attack the buy American sentiment? Confused. Doesn't matter to me who the President is, if my views align with their views that is something I support. I guess if Trump is for it, everyone else has to be against it now. But he has never said and I can't imagine him ever saying that Walmart must only sell USA made stuff.


nebish - 2/13/2017 at 07:32 PM

I just am right now buying a lot of made in USA new old stock radiator caps for $10 each off of ebay because I can't find them in the USA anymore. Stant, Delco, Napa, and other brands started making them in Mexico and elsewhere a handful of years ago. You can still buy Stant and other branded thermostats that are US, but not radiator caps in the US.

So even if it isn't available in a store, or isn't produced any more I go to great lengths to source a USA made item before I consider settling for what else may be out there in terms of an import.

I've said before it is like a religion and for my friends, family and people that know me, it is important I walk the walk because I can't expect anyone else to care if the person who preaches USA to them doesn't back it up when nobody is looking.


pops42 - 2/13/2017 at 07:43 PM

quote:
I just am right now buying a lot of made in USA new old stock radiator caps for $10 each off of ebay because I can't find them in the USA anymore. Stant, Delco, Napa, and other brands started making them in Mexico and elsewhere a handful of years ago. You can still buy Stant and other branded thermostats that are US, but not radiator caps in the US.

So even if it isn't available in a store, or isn't produced any more I go to great lengths to source a USA made item before I consider settling for what else may be out there in terms of an import.

I've said before it is like a religion and for my friends, family and people that know me, it is important I walk the walk because I can't expect anyone else to care if the person who preaches USA to them doesn't back it up when nobody is looking.
Im with you on this I am all for buying american. the recent trend of companies going back to "made in USA" has nothing to do with any political party, they decided in the past few years, its better and more cost effective to make it here. CEO's make over 400x the average worker, because of union busting, and outsourcing starting around the time reagan was elected.


nebish - 2/13/2017 at 07:55 PM

quote:
quote:
I just am right now buying a lot of made in USA new old stock radiator caps for $10 each off of ebay because I can't find them in the USA anymore. Stant, Delco, Napa, and other brands started making them in Mexico and elsewhere a handful of years ago. You can still buy Stant and other branded thermostats that are US, but not radiator caps in the US.

So even if it isn't available in a store, or isn't produced any more I go to great lengths to source a USA made item before I consider settling for what else may be out there in terms of an import.

I've said before it is like a religion and for my friends, family and people that know me, it is important I walk the walk because I can't expect anyone else to care if the person who preaches USA to them doesn't back it up when nobody is looking.


Im with you on this I am all for buying american. the recent trend of companies going back to "made in USA" has nothing to do with any political party, they decided in the past few years, its better and more cost effective to make it here. CEO's make over 400x the average worker, because of union busting, and outsourcing starting around the time reagan was elected.




Pops my friend, I just knew that we had agreement on the root issue.

There may be some aspect of the "political sentiment" or the vague comments by Trump that has led to some thinking about "reshoring" or where their investment dollars will go. But otherwise I agree, businesses do things for reasons of cost and efficiency and location. Back in 2008 when oil/diesel/gas there was a big problem for people relying on overseas shipping that had now skyrocketed due to high fuel costs. And then we have the labor costs that have risen in some areas. When it comes to "better and more cost effective", it is good PR for them to do it if they can market it right, but then there are also the tax and regulatory aspects, which we needed not get into at the moment to kill the buzz...

We could debate the merits of unionized workforce some other time or some other place. But I would say that I want what all labor union workers want. They want good pay, good working conditions, good benefits, job security and future opportunity - that is what I want for US workers as well and I see creating more demand for labor as the means to achieve it (not mandated upon employers who would then consider just outsourcing production as a result). And I know we agree on the outsourcing aspect and the impact it has had on the average or median worker pay compared to CEO pay.

Let's not even mention the name of the POTUS, we are on the same page, Buy American!


nebish - 2/15/2017 at 06:37 PM

When it comes to toys, just about all toys kids like and want are the cheapo crap you see in the toy aisle which is almost always made in China.

We have found that there are some decent alternatives out there that kids actually like and to want to play with. Our grandkids got a some of this stuff for Christmas and it is pretty cool stuff. They claim 100% recycled and 100% made in USA.

Check them out!

http://www.greentoys.com/our-passion#3?show=content


heineken515 - 2/15/2017 at 06:54 PM

I certainly do read labels of most everything I buy, although it sounds like you go to greater lengths to find that Made in USA item when one isn't readily available there on the shelf.

It amazes me to see country of origin on some stuff, tooth brushes for example - I refuse to buy/use a toothbrush made in China, but check it out next time you shop, you too will be amazed where these things are made these days.

Frustrating to read labels only to find it doesn't say where it was made. It may say distributed by or simply give the corporate address of the company, but I am looking for Made in USA, so if it doesn't say that, one can guess what they are hiding.

Edit: and I bookmarked that green toys site, thanks !

[Edited on 2/15/2017 by heineken515]


nebish - 2/19/2017 at 04:57 AM

quote:
I certainly do read labels of most everything I buy, although it sounds like you go to greater lengths to find that Made in USA item when one isn't readily available there on the shelf.

It amazes me to see country of origin on some stuff, tooth brushes for example - I refuse to buy/use a toothbrush made in China, but check it out next time you shop, you too will be amazed where these things are made these days.

Frustrating to read labels only to find it doesn't say where it was made. It may say distributed by or simply give the corporate address of the company, but I am looking for Made in USA, so if it doesn't say that, one can guess what they are hiding.

Edit: and I bookmarked that green toys site, thanks !

[Edited on 2/15/2017 by heineken515]


Sometimes items that are boxed in a case, the individual items may not say where they are made, but the case box would say were they are from. I have seen this in auto parts warehouses, where the product or the individual product box said nothing of country, but if you saw the case box still on the warehouse shelf you may see the country there. When it is on a retail shelf you lose that opportunity to see the case box of course.

Just us buying things that are made in USA without telling people about it and why it is important to us doesn't really do anything. I mean, really my own efforts likely won't effect anything big picture, but we can plant seeds in the minds of people we come in contact with.

This will sound crazy, but sometimes I take something to the register that I saw was imported, but when I'm at check out I pretend I just saw that it was imported right then and there and I tell the cashier that I don't want it and that I try to buy as many things made in USA as possible. This usually gets 3 reactions. The confident "I'm with you on that", or the debbie-downers "nothing is made here anymore", or the always rewarding reaction of "that's fine whatever".


nebish - 2/19/2017 at 05:22 AM

The border adjustment tax is shaping up to be the vehicle in which Washington may address the import / export trade imbalance and outsourcing issue. A massive tax plan is expected and it would be rolled into that. Alot of Republicans are against it, not surprising given their views of free markets and free trade. Border adjustment tax on it's own, I suspect many Democrats will support, but rolled into a larger tax reform bill, I doubt that all that many Democrats will find favor with the overall bill based on the historical push-pull Ds and Rs have on taxes.

Companies with large manufacturing and assembly operations in the US would be for it. Most retailers (who have a large portion of imported goods on their shelf) are against it. Although former Walmart CEO is for it (on big picture principle rather than individual effects it has on one company or anther):

quote:
“[The CEOs in opposition to the tax] are making their decisions based on the tax code as it is set up today, and what’s being proposed is a complete reform of the tax code where the incentives to export jobs and export businesses that have existed for years would be turned around so that the incentives to build capability and jobs in the U.S. would exist,” Bill Simon, former Walmart U.S. president and CEO, said during an interview with FOX Business’ Stuart Varney Wednesday.


A company like Autozone for instance a strongly against it. But this is a key point to be made here, auto parts and accessories are increasingly getting harder and harder to find made in the US. So autozone looks at it's skus and where they come from and conclude that the cost of what they sell will go up and they may have less sales, less profit or be less competitive. BUT, what if some of these companies making the parts begin to make the parts here again to avoid the tax? Then we get the benefit of manufacturing facilities and the jobs and all the local and state taxes that come with it to benefit our communities.

Some calculations have it raising a trillion dollars over some period of time, which will offset a reduction in corporate incomes.

The government may just be happy collecting the tax, but as I have stated, the idea is to incentivize more companies both US and foreign to produce their products in our country with our workers.

We'll see where it goes.

Here is an article on border adjustment tax vs targeted tariffs
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2017/02/paul_ryans_border_adjustmen t_tax_vs_donald_trumps_targeted_tariffs.html

Lots of articles around right now that you can find on the issue.
http://www.npr.org/2017/02/11/514650890/trump-gop-at-odds-over-border-adjus tment-tax
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-breakingviews-idUSKBN15920G


[Edited on 2/19/2017 by nebish]


LeglizHemp - 2/20/2017 at 09:13 PM

just another FYI

My salesman just got back from a week in Mexico visiting customers. General consensus was they are not coming back and are willing to let the US consumer pay higher prices for parts. CNC machines aren't made in the USA, nor are alot of cutting tools. Other supplies required for manufacturing can be purchased from sources outside the USA also. Workers there in general have been getting a 5% raise each year for the last few years. A lot of what's made down there is sold south of the border anyhow. Now i'm not talking about every manufacturer, just the ones I deal with.


nebish - 2/21/2017 at 12:54 AM

quote:
just another FYI

My salesman just got back from a week in Mexico visiting customers. General consensus was they are not coming back and are willing to let the US consumer pay higher prices for parts. CNC machines aren't made in the USA, nor are alot of cutting tools. Other supplies required for manufacturing can be purchased from sources outside the USA also. Workers there in general have been getting a 5% raise each year for the last few years. A lot of what's made down there is sold south of the border anyhow. Now i'm not talking about every manufacturer, just the ones I deal with.


Haas

quote:
Today, Haas manufactures four major product lines: vertical machining centers (VMCs), horizontal machining centers (HMCs), CNC lathes and rotary tables, as well as a number of large five-axis and specialty machines. All Haas products are manufactured at the company's expansive facility in Oxnard, California – the largest, most modern machine tool manufacturing operation in the United States.
http://www.haascnc.com/about_history.asp#gsc.tab=0



I knew Haas was USA. Not sure if anyone else is. Where are the Japanese machines made? I know they are regarded for very high quality. They build those in Asia or Mexico?

Holding fixtures -

Orange Vise 100% USA
http://orangevise.com/

Kurt's website says made in USA
http://www.kurt.com/product_solutions/kurt-workholding-solutions

Granger shows 2,229 machine tool related items with USA country of origin.


LeglizHemp - 2/21/2017 at 01:31 AM

Haas are good machines but......not for 24/7 manufacturing. they are fairly weak throw away machines compared to mazak and okuma etc.

the workholding companies you name don't do integrated turnkey systems integrated i mean they may do some, but not the type automotive need for a lot of parts. i don't want to give away too much....NDA's and all

lol, i do workholding....we are american


nebish - 2/21/2017 at 01:49 AM

You are certainly more qualified than me on the day-to-day use of CNCs. I've been around many machine tools, but have never used a mill, lathe or CNC.

Funny, did I link to two of your competitors? That would be weird! What if I unknowingly linked to your company?

My friend is a machinist and has taught machine trades at the high school and career/vocational school level.

Haas sponsored a competitive rock crawling Jeep his students built. Haas is also part owner of a very good nascar team. You are about to learn alot more about nascar this year!


LeglizHemp - 2/21/2017 at 02:01 AM

LOL, no those guys not close to my competitors. Haas makes good stuff for smaller shops....thats why they advertise in Nascar. they also make good CNC controls. they are not a bad company but i have never owned one, which means absolutely nothing.


LeglizHemp - 2/21/2017 at 02:17 AM

i will say a CNC that can do multiple operations is worthless if you don't have workholding to hold the part while it happens. its always a struggle between theory and reality.


nebish - 3/4/2017 at 02:12 PM



quote:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/hasbro-to-make-play-doh-american-again-1488031 202
By Paul Ziobro
Feb. 25, 2017 9:00 a.m. ET
93 COMMENTS

Play-Doh will soon be squeezed out of a factory in the U.S. again, as Hasbro Inc. brings manufacturing of the popular moldable clay back to America for the first time in years.

Hasbro said it is working with a manufacturing partner to make Play-Doh at a facility in East Longmeadow, Mass., starting in the second half of 2018. Although the preschool clay was invented in Cincinnati in the 1950s, it hasn’t been made in the U.S. since 2004.


Play-doh moves to the approved grandchild gift list next year!


nebish - 3/4/2017 at 02:15 PM

Same article:

quote:
Companies are exploring new places to make toys as the Trump administration and Congress weigh a dramatic overhaul of U.S. tax policy. One proposal from House Republicans would prevent companies from deducting the cost of imports when calculating their taxes, while exempting proceeds from exports. That plan has been under attack from retailers, senators and oil refiners. Mr. Trump has offered ambivalent positions on the border-adjustment idea, but he has consistently said he wants policies that favor domestic manufacturing.

Such a change would have serious implications for the $25 billion U.S. toy industry, which has long made the vast majority of its product overseas. The research firm IBISWorld estimates that 98.5% of all toys sold in the U.S. last year were made elsewhere.

Toy companies are assessing the different scenarios. Mattel Inc. executives said last month that if the government imposes a major tax on imported products, the company would have to adjust its manufacturing footprint. Mattel closed its last U.S. production site—a Fisher-Price factory in Murray, Ky.—in 2002.

“Shorter term, there’s not much we can do about that,” said Kevin Farr, Mattel’s finance chief, on an earnings conference call. “Longer term, I think we would react to it.”


"have to adjust it's manufacturing footprint"...Taxing imports can yield the desired results.


BoytonBrother - 3/5/2017 at 03:42 AM

Yes, lets be calm and rational when discussing Trump. That will show 'em.


nebish - 3/5/2017 at 03:04 PM

39 page weekly flier from Menards featuring all Made in USA products. I saved it as a good reference resource if nothing else, the ad lists the states the items are made in.

http://www.menards.com/main/flyer.html?&flyer_run_id=212944&locale= en&flyer_type_name=weekly&utm_content=Made-In-the-USA&utm_mediu m=email&utm_campaign=10A-2017%20(1)&utm_source=SilverpopMailing& ;cm_mmc=silverpop-_-email-_-10A-2017%20(1)-_-Made-In-the-USA&store_code =3316


Sang - 3/8/2017 at 07:56 PM

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-made-in-america-20170308-story.html


Saw someone post this on Facebook...

When you stroll the aisles of the Made in America Store, you might notice a conspicuous absence. There is not a single item for sale that requires a battery or a plug. That is because no electronics meet the strict guidelines of an emporium that stocks only products 100% made in America.

Still, American-made goods abound — socks and hiking boots, plastic lawn furniture, flags and decals, beer and barbecue sauce, mops and sponges. Toilet paper.

There are three aisles of toys, non-electronic, that veer toward the nostalgic: playing cards, horseshoes, marbles and jacks, boomerangs, Slinkies, perhaps their bestselling item. Checkers and Chinese checkers. (Not the kind made in China.)

The Made in America Store is the brainchild of Mark Andol, 50, an energetic, mile-a-minute talker with silver-tinged, waved-back hair and a wispy mustache.

Andol, the third generation of a Greek immigrant family, was raised on American manufacturing. His father was an ironworker employed at the Ford stamping plant in nearby Buffalo and his mother made xylophone keys for a subcontractor of Fisher-Price, the toy company headquartered in nearby East Aurora.

Andol was frustrated that his welding company, which made metal parts for industry, kept losing contracts to cheaper Chinese competitors. So on a whim, in 2010, he rented a vacant automobile dealership to showcase American products.

“Sure, Mark. The world is fully of crazy people. Go for it,’’ Andol recalls he was told.

Filling the cavernous building proved more difficult than Andol imagined. At first he carried only 50 products. He had set a standard higher than the Federal Trade Commission, requiring that the products be 100% U.S. made “right down to the glue in the packaging.’’

Andol was familiar with the certification procedures because he sometimes bid on military contracts, which give preference to U.S. suppliers under a 1941 law called the Berry amendment. He would pore over binders with letters certifying the origins of the components only to be crushed when he had to dump a product that did not make the cut.

“I was so excited to find tea from the United States because I’m a tea drinker, but then I found out the bags were made in Japan and I had to kick it out of the store,” he said.

In homage to his mother’s past making xylophone keys, Andol badly wanted to sell toys from Fisher-Price, which has its headquarters just two miles away.

“They used to have model builders, toy makers, engineers working here, but now they are all gone and only the corporate headquarters is here,’’ Andol said. “I couldn’t find one Fisher-Price toy completely made in America.’’

Other retailers are trying an all-American approach, but it is a constant struggle. Today, Andol boasts that he stocks 7,000 items, although admittedly the numbers get a boost from some products that are essentially the same but come in different sizes or colors. He has opened several branch stores and sells online.

Shoppers in search of a specific item would be advised to head to Wal-Mart. But the novelty of shopping American is enough of an adventure that the Made in America flagship attracts more than 600 tour buses annually.

The store is decked out in an American theme, the walls covered with large completely American-made American flags. (The U.S. imports about $4 million in American flags from China each year.) T-shirts are plastered with the store’s slogan, “Because China is a long drive to work!”

For all the anti-China rhetoric, some of the best customers are Chinese tourists.

“The Chinese go ballistic buying stuff in there because it is made in America, not made in China,’’ said Eric Bateman, a tour bus operator from Conrad, Iowa, who brings tourists on their way to Niagara Falls. “Mark sells these great, simple things. You can buy a can opener and put it in the dishwasher and it doesn’t rust.’’

Bringing manufacturing back to the United States — and preserving manufacturing still here — is seen as the holy grail of economic revival for many policymakers and politicians. “My administration will follow two simple rules: Buy American, and hire American,” Donald Trump declared at a postelection victory rally in Des Moines last year.

And yet they are elusive goals, many economists say.

“We live in a world today where you have very complex interdependent supply networks,’’ said Willy Shih, a professor at Harvard Business School who has written extensively on the need for a U.S. manufacturing revival. “One of the challenges with technology is that you have a lot of high-value components from various sources.”

From experience, Andol knows that hiring American labor can be as difficult as sourcing American products. At his manufacturing shop, he is struggling to find skilled welders, fabricators and engineers, and the people he hires are undoubtedly more expensive than foreign workers.

“If I took my $2.4-million payroll overseas, I’d be paying $400,000,” Andol said. “But you need to support the country you live in too.”

Andol is enthusiastic about President Trump’s promises to bring back American goods, though a little disappointed that Trump and his daughter Ivanka had so much of the clothing they sell manufactured outside the U.S.

“I think it is very hard, but I personally know clothing can be made here… and some of what we sell is cheaper than the imports,’’ he said.

To prove his point, Andol explains his own wardrobe. He wears Texas Jeans (which are actually made in Asheville, N.C.), Wigwam socks, Thorogood work boots. It’s all made in American right down to the underwear, belt and the wallet he carries. The only notable except is what he always carries: the iPhone.



nebish - 3/9/2017 at 05:07 PM

Thanks Sang for posting that.

As much time as I do spend trying to buy USA (either made or assembled) I have never and can't imagine actually trying to verify where all the components are made. To me personally, if it is assembled in the USA with all foreign components that is still better than foreign assembled with all foreign components. I have read stories from companies who seek domestic components for their products and in many cases those parts are just not available here.

The FTC says in order for a product to be labeled made in USA that “All or virtually all” means that all significant parts and processing that go into the product must be of U.S. origin. That is, the product should contain no — or negligible — foreign content

That is a very high standard, and difficult in many cases for companies to achieve.

New Balance shoes says that if the content is 70% domestic value, they label them as "made in USA". If it is under 70% but built here, they label those "assembled in USA".

To me 'assembled in the USA with domestic and foreign components' satisfies what I am looking for - and often that is as good as it gets on many products.


nebish - 3/9/2017 at 05:31 PM

A few electronics off the top of my head that likely don't meet the Made in USA store's criteria, but are assembled in the USA to my knowledge:

Most Wahl shavers

Some CHI branded hair dryers and irons

Dewalt is reintroducing cordless and corded power tools as assembled in USA

Wolf and Dacor microwaves (although costing $500 and up)

Bunn has some limited USA coffee makers

Kitchen Aid has USA mixers

MagLite flash lights (and Surefire flashlights a higher end flashlight)

Princeton headlamp flashlights

Some table lamps and wall/ceiling mounted light fixtures are made in USA, but the wiring and bulb/switch components are foreign

RCA labels an indoor/outdoor over the air HD antenna as USA

Leviton has many electrical outlets and switches USA

Hubbell has some 220v electrical outlets and other products USA

Vornado has a couple small heaters assembled in USA

Shop Vac branded shop vacs are still listed as USA (most other shop type vacs are not)

Some Oreck and Ricar sweepers

There is still some very high end consumer audio/video equipment + professional recording and amplifying equipment that is USA

Big Ass Fans (large industrial ceiling fans)

Fellows paper shredders (expensive commercial units)

Aprilaire dehumidifiers (some other high end dehumidifiers also USA)

Some outside security lights (newer LED units, not HID or HPS)

Some outside low voltage landscape lighting

Some Braun bathroom exhaust fans

There are probably some others I am not thinking of. Electronics assembled in the USA are out there, but exclusively using USA parts? - it must be virtually impossible as the article states.


nebish - 3/9/2017 at 05:38 PM

Kid Rock is diversifying himself it appears:

Bad Ass Grill - Made in USA
https://americanbadassgrill.com/




quote:
Kid Rock's 'American Badass' grill will promote U.S. manufacturing, jobs
Introducing Kid Rock's American Badass Grill

Brandon Champion | bchampio@mlive.com By Brandon Champion | bchampio@mlive.com

March 03, 2017 at 1:59 PM, updated March 03, 2017 at 2:13 PM

DETROIT -- Add grills to the list of merchandise Kid Rock is offering to the world.

The Detroit musician announced the "American Badass Grill" via his social media channels on Friday, March 3. The release comes with a message of keeping jobs in the United States. The grills will be manufactured 100 percent in America.

As only he can, Kid Rock hammered that point home in an explosive promotional video posted to a Facebook page dedicated to the product.

"We got grills that are made in China," he says in the video as "Bawitdaba" plays in the background. "We got 50 cals that are made in America. This is 100 percent, pure American badass."

He then proceeds to use the gun to shoot and destroy the Chinese grill.

The portable, full-throttle grill comes in gas or charcoal and is large enough to fit 12 burgers. The charcoal grill costs $99.95 and the gas grill is listed at $149.95.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2017/03/kid_rock_joins_grill_ma rket_to.html


nebish - 3/13/2017 at 03:45 PM

NAFTA update

quote:
Nafta Renegotiation Timeline Could Weaken Mexico’s Bargaining Power

Talks could overlap with next year’s elections, risking rejection of any pact by whomever wins the presidency

By Juan Montes and
Dudley Althaus in Mexico City and
William Mauldin in Washington
Updated March 10, 2017 3:05 p.m. ET
26 COMMENTS

An uncertain timetable for renegotiating the North American Free Trade Agreement is sparking concern in Mexico that the complex talks will become entangled with the country’s presidential elections next year, undermining its government’s bargaining position and ability to get a deal approved.

Senior Mexican officials have said they want to complete negotiations by year’s end. But observers see that goal as overly optimistic and fear pushing talks deep into next year risks rejection by whomever wins the July 2018 vote.

A lame duck President Enrique Peña Nieto could have trouble garnering support in Congress, where his party now lacks an outright majority, and as the election nears, it will be increasingly difficult for his government to make any concession to a U.S. administration that is highly unpopular in his country, analysts say.

On Friday, Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross said he hoped to notify Congress in the coming weeks of the Trump administration’s intention to renegotiate Nafta, starting a required 90-day clock for consultations with U.S. lawmakers.

“There will be lots of discussions about lots of issues,” Mr. Ross told reporters after meeting with Mexican Economy Minister Ildefonso Guajardo. Starting U.S. consultations soon could permit formal trade talks to begin by July, meeting Mexican officials’ preferred timeline to minimize political risks, but still push them well into next year.

“The process is likely to stretch to the second half of next year,” said Jaime Zabludovsky, a former Mexican official who helped negotiate Nafta in the early 1990s. “Trade talks risk becoming the piñata of Mexico’s election.”

Negotiations during Mexico’s political season could further heighten uncertainty, which already has hit the Mexican currency, hampered investment and throttled growth, analysts say. A weaker peso could further widen Mexico´s trade surplus with the U.S. by boosting cheaper Mexican imports and denting demand in Mexico for costlier American products.

President Donald Trump made renegotiating Nafta, which he has labeled as the “worst trade deal ever,” a key campaign promise. He shocked Mexicans with claims that the pact—which also includes Canada—has unfairly benefited Mexico, which last year posted a trade surplus with the U.S. of about $63 billion.

Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto spoke at a meeting of the National Agricultural Council in Mexico City on Feb. 2. If Nafta negotiations extend well into next year, Mexican presidential candidates would likely use them to attack the Peña Nieto administration.
Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto spoke at a meeting of the National Agricultural Council in Mexico City on Feb. 2. If Nafta negotiations extend well into next year, Mexican presidential candidates would likely use them to attack the Peña Nieto administration. Photo: Rebecca Blackwell/Associated Press

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on Friday said his government is prepared for any proposed renegotiation of Nafta. This isn’t a “zero-sum game in terms of negotiations,” Mr. Trudeau added.

Mr. Trump has sought to speed up Nafta renegotiation, and his advisers say new aspects of Nafta could serve as a blueprint for bilateral negotiations with other countries such as Japan and the U.K. But the U.S. Congress is also eager to play a role in setting priorities of the talks and could slow down the process, which could also be complicated by midterm elections in 2018. Some lawmakers are wary of opening up Nafta to changes.

“The next two years look politically and electorally difficult on both sides,” said Tony Payan, a Mexican political scientist with the Baker Institute at Rice University in Houston. “This is why free trade agreements are often negotiated in the dark.”

Comments by Mr. Ross earlier this week that the talks “hopefully won’t take more than a year” raised eyebrows in Mexico. Such a protracted process could weaken Mr. Peña Nieto’s political capital with both lawmakers and the public if his administration is seen as losing in the talks, analysts say.

A revised Nafta would require the approval of Mexico’s Senate, where the ruling Institutional Revolutionary Party only has a simple majority. If negotiations extend well into next year, presidential candidates would likely use them—and Mr. Trump’s deep unpopularity in Mexico—to attack the Peña Nieto administration.

Recent opinion polls place leftist Andrés Manuel López Obrador ahead in what is expected to be a bitterly contested presidential election campaign. Though he has spoken favorably of Nafta in recent months, Mr. López Obrador has been a sharp critic of the free-market policies of Mr. Peña Nieto and other recent presidents.

U.S. Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross said Friday that any talks with Mexico and Canada over the North American Free Trade Agreement ‘will either be two parallel bilaterals with symmetrical provisions or one new trilateral.’ Photo: Justin Sullivan/Getty Images

“There may be enough time, but it’s difficult to tell until there’s more clarity over what exactly the U.S. wants to change,” said Moisés Kalach, a businessman who coordinates the government’s business advisory group on trade talks. “If they want a deep overhaul, it could be problematic.”

In 2011, talks between Mexico and Japan to renegotiate their free-trade agreement lasted more than a year. Mexico’s renegotiation of a free-trade deal with the European Union started in 2015 and hasn’t concluded yet.

Both U.S. and Mexican officials have stressed this week that it is too early to discuss any particulars on what might be produced by negotiations. Mexican officials began consultations with the country’s business community weeks ago. Mr. Guajardo, Mexico’s economic minister, has said that any new U.S. import duties would be a deal breaker.

“There has been no talk about unilateral actions,” Mexican Foreign Minister Luis Videgaray said in Washington on Thursday, after a day of “constructive” talks with senior U.S. officials.

—Paul Vieira contributed to this article.

Write to Juan Montes at juan.montes@wsj.com, Dudley Althaus at Dudley.Althaus@wsj.com and William Mauldin at william.mauldin@wsj.com

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-signals-nafta-talks-could-start-as-soon-as -late-june-1489161050



[Edited on 3/13/2017 by nebish]


heineken515 - 3/13/2017 at 07:22 PM

I do business with Dollar Shave Club, mainly because I liked the commercials and I think the prices for razors in the stores are way too high.

Over the years I have also started to buy their shave gel and one hair product. The shave gel says "Made in the USA" on the back, the hair product not, so I sent them an email and asked about the hair product and also their razors.

They responded that not only the shave gel but also the hair products are indeed made in USA, but the razors were made in S. Korea - dangit, I suppose that was asking too much.


BoytonBrother - 3/14/2017 at 06:16 AM

I can't wait until Mr. Trump stops the incentivization of outsourcing. I have no doubt he'll make that a priority.


nebish - 3/14/2017 at 06:30 PM

quote:
I do business with Dollar Shave Club, mainly because I liked the commercials and I think the prices for razors in the stores are way too high.

Over the years I have also started to buy their shave gel and one hair product. The shave gel says "Made in the USA" on the back, the hair product not, so I sent them an email and asked about the hair product and also their razors.

They responded that not only the shave gel but also the hair products are indeed made in USA, but the razors were made in S. Korea - dangit, I suppose that was asking too much.


I think there is one of those member companies that offers USA razors...can't remember their name, maybe google knows. I use an electric that was made in Netherlands, had it for long time now. I have thought about trying a Wahl if it was USA. Some of the Phillips and Norelco shavers are still made in Europe.

quote:
I can't wait until Mr. Trump stops the incentivization of outsourcing. I have no doubt he'll make that a priority.


Talk is cheap. We'll see what the actions are. Please don't make any mistake, my personal interest in this subject is not a newfound attachment with Trump, goes much much further and deeper than that.


nebish - 3/21/2017 at 01:50 PM

Passed this onto a friend yesterday thought I'd post it here as well.

This is where we get our bedding sheets and covers, etc.

https://www.amdorm.com/collections/dorm-bedding/Dorm-Bedding


Sang - 3/21/2017 at 04:51 PM

My wife and I have had a Tempurpedic bed for more than 10 years. She wanted something new, so I did some searching online. We decided to try the Eight Sleep mattress, which has a technology layer that tracks your sleep and has a feature to warm each side of the bed to different temperatures. Just ordered it, so I don't have it yet. According to them the mattress is Made in the USA, but the technology layer (which goes over the bed like a mattress pad) is made in China.


LeglizHemp - 4/18/2017 at 09:44 PM

Nebish, Hi, with this new executive order i thought of you. a thought popped into my head about how you try very hard to buy american. do you apply the same rules at the grocery store? are there alot of fruits and vegetables you won't eat because they are only grown outside the USA. i'm not making fun of you, i am sincerely curious. are there restaurants you won't eat at because they are owned by a corporation from outside the USA? i didn't read back thru the thread to see if this was discussed, sorry if it was.

i think i remember its not a hard and fast rule just something to try to do your best at.


nebish - 4/19/2017 at 02:28 PM

quote:
Nebish, Hi, with this new executive order i thought of you. a thought popped into my head about how you try very hard to buy american. do you apply the same rules at the grocery store? are there alot of fruits and vegetables you won't eat because they are only grown outside the USA. i'm not making fun of you, i am sincerely curious. are there restaurants you won't eat at because they are owned by a corporation from outside the USA? i didn't read back thru the thread to see if this was discussed, sorry if it was.

i think i remember its not a hard and fast rule just something to try to do your best at.


That's nice of you to think of me!

I am a little out of the loop this week being on the road. I will have to look into the EO.

Vegetables are never a problem, atleast the ones I eat. Fresh and frozen vegetables that I buy have always been able to be easily found as produce of the USA.

Fruit is a little tougher. I buy grapes from California. If they are from Chile or Peru I leave them. Blueberries can be tough, at times you can find them from California, other times Central America. Bananas are always imported at my stores and I do buy those. Unless I had a local Florida or Hawaii source I don't know where in the US I could buy Bananas from.

One funny thing about organic. You know you have organic produce, some of it USA some of it imported. And organic is more money and some people buy that because they believe in the benefit of organic produce. I don't hear too much fear mongering about higher prices for organic produce. But if you say we should have more USA product, produce or goods in general look out "all that is going to do is rise prices and hurt people".

Just comes down to what you care about and believe in.

But yeah, grocery shopping food in general. I look at everything.

Restaurants? I've asked where a restaurant's shrimp comes from before and got blank stares back. If you are in the south, those people can typically answer that question and hopefully if they tell you it is US caught or raised you can believe them.

All this push for dietary and calorie data on menus...how about some country sourcing on menus?

Honestly I know very little about who owns what restaurants.

Alot of times I do not know if brand x is owned by a domestic or foreign company/country either, but it doesn't always matter anyway. I would buy a Honda or Toyota made in the USA before I would buy a Chevy or Ford made in Mexico or Korea. I celebrate foreign brands making their goods here just as much as I do US brands. And I demonize them both equally for taking advantage of cheaper costs abroad to import those products for sale here.

My view comes down to where the local investment and employment is taking place in our country regardless of it is foreign or domestic ownership. More foreign companies making things here instead of abroad is a good outcome for my beliefs. So I am not anti-foreign person, I just want average people to be able to have jobs available to them here and if we have more jobs chasing fewer workers then wages and benefits for workers can rise naturally.


heineken515 - 4/19/2017 at 03:09 PM

I would love country of origin listed on restaurant menu's !

I'll never forget the time I picked up a can of green beans in Publix, Del Monte or Jolly Green Giant or some other big name - fine print on the back - "produced in China" - on a can of green beans for goodness sake.

Shrimp is a tough one for sure. Living in Florida has spoiled me somewhat on seafood, not that imported seafood doesn't exist here, it does, but in that shrimp, stone crabs, fish are all available locally caught.

Ate some stone crab claws last night, ummm.


OriginalGoober - 4/20/2017 at 11:28 PM

You mean Sysco is not an acceptable answer ?


LeglizHemp - 4/20/2017 at 11:34 PM

thanks for the reply nebish, i have nothing to add other than i think, not sure, that Trump wants to do away with that kind of labeling. i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong, lol, or right.


2112 - 4/21/2017 at 12:18 AM

quote:
I would love country of origin listed on restaurant menu's !

I'll never forget the time I picked up a can of green beans in Publix, Del Monte or Jolly Green Giant or some other big name - fine print on the back - "produced in China" - on a can of green beans for goodness sake.

Shrimp is a tough one for sure. Living in Florida has spoiled me somewhat on seafood, not that imported seafood doesn't exist here, it does, but in that shrimp, stone crabs, fish are all available locally caught.

Ate some stone crab claws last night, ummm.


I'd like to know the country of origin of all food, but particularly meat. If you, like me, are pissed off that Congress took away country of origin labeling last year and want to know who to blame, here is a list of how each member of Congress voted:

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/114-2015/h333


nebish - 4/28/2017 at 01:40 PM

Some guys I went to automotive trade school with were there on TAA or TRA money who were laid off when Werner Ladder shifted production from western PA to Mexico.

It's gotten hard to find a new ladder made in the USA.

Here is an option. You can buy a few of them from online sources, or there may be a distributor in your area if interested. I own some.

http://michiganladder.com/

[Edited on 4/28/2017 by nebish]


Jerry - 5/5/2017 at 08:03 PM

If you are looking for tires, Kumo tires are made here in Macon, Ga. They just doubled production about a year ago.


gina - 5/7/2017 at 11:02 PM

quote:
Mexico will not renegotiate nafta http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-37945913
And they are NOT paying for any f#cking wall.



Don't they have enough revenue from the pot trafficking and officials being paid off so that people sneak it thru customs at the border? Don't they have enough revenue to pay for the wall, seriously!


heineken515 - 5/9/2017 at 06:09 PM

We have a Samsung refrigerator with a water filter that occasionally needs replaced.

These things are not cheap at Lowe's as they only carry the original Samsung replacement at $49.99 for one.

Went searching online and found discountfilters.com

They had a filter they say is Made in the USA, brand name Clear Choice.

I got a pack of three for the same price as the Samsung filter at Lowe's - with free shipping !


nebish - 5/10/2017 at 02:28 PM

Speaking of filters...

If your water system uses a cartridge style sediment filter those are hard to find made in USA. Here is a source I have bought from:

http://www.micronfiltercartridges.com/index.html


nebish - 5/10/2017 at 02:38 PM

quote:
If you are looking for tires, Kumo tires are made here in Macon, Ga. They just doubled production about a year ago.


A friend of mine who balances tires has praised the quality of some of the Japanese tires. I am not too familiar with the Korean brands, although I'm seeing more of them on new cars.

I am partial to US brands, but bottom line, if Kumho or any foreign brand is building more products here employing Americans and supporting US communities vs importing them that is a good thing.


heineken515 - 5/10/2017 at 02:50 PM

quote:
Speaking of filters...

If your water system uses a cartridge style sediment filter those are hard to find made in USA. Here is a source I have bought from:

http://www.micronfiltercartridges.com/index.html


From the above website:

One filter brand had an American Flag on the package with the words-

“Made for the U.S.A.”

which could easily be mistaken for “Made in the U.S.A.” Obviously, the brand was trying to be deceptive with their customers.


nebish - 5/10/2017 at 06:05 PM

quote:
quote:
Speaking of filters...

If your water system uses a cartridge style sediment filter those are hard to find made in USA. Here is a source I have bought from:

http://www.micronfiltercartridges.com/index.html


From the above website:

One filter brand had an American Flag on the package with the words-

“Made for the U.S.A.”

which could easily be mistaken for “Made in the U.S.A.” Obviously, the brand was trying to be deceptive with their customers.


Yeah pretty crazy the depth some people will go to fool others!

I'm wasn't aware of any other of these types of filters (called point of entry filters) that are made in USA except for Micron Filter Corp. The link you posted for discount filters does show some of the Hydronix brand with an American flag on it, although their description doesn't say. Everpure and Pentek do not have any USA photos or references. Never saw a name brand one in a hardware or plumbing store that was US.


heineken515 - 5/10/2017 at 06:26 PM

I may have been duped on the filters I bought, when they come in I'll scour the fine print, see what I find.


LeglizHemp - 5/23/2017 at 12:35 PM

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/23/business/harley-davidson-thailand-factor y-manufacturing.html?_r=0

Even Harley-Davidson Can’t Resist the Tug of Overseas Factories


heineken515 - 5/23/2017 at 07:06 PM

The filters I mentioned above were indeed made in the USA by the way.

That Harley news is a little different.

This from a different article:

The plant is known as a complete knock down facility, an assembly plant where Harley-Davidson will put together bikes using parts shipped from its U.S. factories or suppliers.

Harleys made in Thailand will support sales in China and southeastern Asia, as the manufacturer works toward its goal of growing its international business to half of annual sales by 2027.

Thailand has a 60% tax on imported bikes, a tax that would not apply to Harleys assembled for delivery inside the country’s borders.


nebish - 5/25/2017 at 02:59 AM

The Harley story is a prime example of how a tariff works and what companies will do to avoid it. What if we had a 60% tariff on cars imported from Korea? Think Kia and Hyundai would be building more plants here? You betcha.


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