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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 12:28 PM
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Alloak - So you really think a guy like Santorum would have a better shot at winning than Christie?


No. I think Christie would have a better shot than Santorum. One man hug with Obama did not make Christie a centrist. He's Conservative enough.


Santorum's values appeal to ideology of 100 years ago. The country has moved forward without him & those in your party who formulate platform. The real fireworks begin if and when Christie chooses to challenge ideology, old schoolers, & Tea Baggers. The real question is - Does the GOP want to cling to its past or put up a candidate that can appeal to more than a rigid base? You can no longer win with just the conservative vote. This puts the GOP in a difficult position.

 

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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 12:28 PM
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alloak, Romney could have gotten 4 million more conservative votes from people who stayed home, and he still would have lost. Obama won the popular vote by over 5 million votes when everything was counted.

I hate to interrupt your theory with some bothersome facts, but your continued insistence that the reason Romney lost is because of disgruntled conservatives is not backed up by the numbers, and saying it over and over again doesn't make it true.


1. Four million voters couldn't have made a difference? Elections are not won on the popular vote.

2. Your right, Conservatives are digruntled with moderates or centrists. Take my word on that. But, how can you say my theory is incorrect when it hasn't been tested? We've now seen two moderates in a row LOSE to a candidate with (1) no real qualifications, then (2) a pathetic record, but you're are the one that's correct? How's that work?

And maybe you can answer the question: How does one have a prayer of winning an election if they can't win their base? Why run at all? Sure, a conservative on the ticket might lose and I could live with that, but another centrist will lose.



[Edited on 2/28/2013 by alloak41]


No secret that voter turnout is often the most important factor in deciding for any election. But I don't think your "analysis" holds water for this election. The middle/undecided voters is what sways elections. Obama got 8 million fewer voters in 2012 compared to 2008, while Romney's vote total was about 2 million less than McCain. Romney obviously couldn't sway enough of those 8 million votes his way, and I would suggest that was at least in part because he tossed aside his more centrist tendancies to court the conservative base. I believe that if the GOP establishment had embraced a candidate at the outset who was fiscally conservative but socially moderate and could actually stick to his/her convictions that they would have had a much better chance at beating the incumbant. Going more conservative in 2016 to appeal to the hardcore conservative base that didn't believe Romney was really one of them would only help to ensure 4 more years of a Democrat in the White House, IMO.



[Edited on 2/28/2013 by gondicar]

 

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Ultimate Peach



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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 12:30 PM
If election 2016 brings Joe Biden vs. Another Bat Sh*t Nutz Severe Conservative Part Deux,

I wont be able to handle a Biden Presidency.

 

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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 12:31 PM
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Alloak - So you really think a guy like Santorum would have a better shot at winning than Christie?


No. I think Christie would have a better shot than Santorum. One man hug with Obama did not make Christie a centrist. He's Conservative enough.


Apparently the CPAC and jerryphilbob disagree with you.

 

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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 12:54 PM
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The real fireworks begin if and when Christie chooses to challenge ideology, old schoolers, & Tea Baggers. The real question is - Does the GOP want to cling to its past or put up a candidate that can appeal to more than a rigid base? You can no longer win with just the conservative vote. This puts the GOP in a difficult position.


I believe you have to win your base first, and always will. If you're unwilling to do that why run at all? As far as your "fireworks" - Christie is a tax cutter, budget balancer, regulation easer, bureaucracy trimmer, takes on unions, and is certainly not PC. Hardly left wing or centrist attributes. Conservatism flows from him, and he's much more likely to challenge the disadvantages of say, an entitlement state - than challenge those who share his views to a large extent.

 

True Peach



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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 01:11 PM
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alloak, Romney could have gotten 4 million more conservative votes from people who stayed home, and he still would have lost. Obama won the popular vote by over 5 million votes when everything was counted.

I hate to interrupt your theory with some bothersome facts, but your continued insistence that the reason Romney lost is because of disgruntled conservatives is not backed up by the numbers, and saying it over and over again doesn't make it true.


1. Four million voters couldn't have made a difference? Elections are not won on the popular vote.

2. Your right, Conservatives are digruntled with moderates or centrists. Take my word on that. But, how can you say my theory is incorrect when it hasn't been tested? We've now seen two moderates in a row LOSE to a candidate with (1) no real qualifications, then (2) a pathetic record, but you're are the one that's correct? How's that work?

And maybe you can answer the question: How does one have a prayer of winning an election if they can't win their base? Why run at all? Sure, a conservative on the ticket might lose and I could live with that, but another centrist will lose.



[Edited on 2/28/2013 by alloak41]


You leave out that your opinion of Obama having no qualifications and having a pathetic record isn't shared by the majority of Americans. The people spoke! Enough already. They didn't lose because of what you claim, they lost because their ideologies don't match up with that of the majority of Americans both economically and especially socially. Plain and simple and if your party stubbornly refuse to change at all they will continue to lose. There isn't a single person on that CPAC talking list who would have a rats @ss of a chance of beating Hillary Clinton should she run. They need some serious more moderate candidates or they are doomed. The demographics in this country are shifting more and more against the GOP's ideologies and if they continue to stay soooooo far to the right they will get smoked worse and worse in every national election that comes along. That is unless they find a way to mess with the districting of the electorial college to cheat their way to victory.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 01:17 PM
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quote:
The real fireworks begin if and when Christie chooses to challenge ideology, old schoolers, & Tea Baggers. The real question is - Does the GOP want to cling to its past or put up a candidate that can appeal to more than a rigid base? You can no longer win with just the conservative vote. This puts the GOP in a difficult position.


I believe you have to win your base first, and always will. If you're unwilling to do that why run at all? As far as your "fireworks" - Christie is a tax cutter, budget balancer, regulation easer, bureaucracy trimmer, takes on unions, and is certainly not PC. Hardly left wing or centrist attributes. Conservatism flows from him, and he's much more likely to challenge the disadvantages of say, an entitlement state - than challenge those who share his views to a large extent.



The way it looks now with the tea party and the farthest to the right controlling things I doubt that Christie could ever get the GOP nomination. Seems to me like they are doubling down on the same far right whacko list of clowns and their extreme ideologies. Not that I think Christie unless he was willing to move more center would even have a chance against someone like Clinton but he would certainly have a better chance than any of the others on that CPAC list.

 

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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 01:21 PM
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quote:
quote:
alloak, Romney could have gotten 4 million more conservative votes from people who stayed home, and he still would have lost. Obama won the popular vote by over 5 million votes when everything was counted.

I hate to interrupt your theory with some bothersome facts, but your continued insistence that the reason Romney lost is because of disgruntled conservatives is not backed up by the numbers, and saying it over and over again doesn't make it true.


1. Four million voters couldn't have made a difference? Elections are not won on the popular vote.

2. Your right, Conservatives are digruntled with moderates or centrists. Take my word on that. But, how can you say my theory is incorrect when it hasn't been tested? We've now seen two moderates in a row LOSE to a candidate with (1) no real qualifications, then (2) a pathetic record, but you're are the one that's correct? How's that work?

And maybe you can answer the question: How does one have a prayer of winning an election if they can't win their base? Why run at all? Sure, a conservative on the ticket might lose and I could live with that, but another centrist will lose.



[Edited on 2/28/2013 by alloak41]


You leave out that your opinion of Obama having no qualifications and having a pathetic record isn't shared by the majority of Americans. The people spoke! Enough already. They didn't lose because of what you claim, they lost because their ideologies don't match up with that of the majority of Americans both economically and especially socially. Plain and simple and if your party stubbornly refuse to change at all they will continue to lose. There isn't a single person on that CPAC talking list who would have a rats @ss of a chance of beating Hillary Clinton should she run. They need some serious more moderate candidates or they are doomed. The demographics in this country are shifting more and more against the GOP's ideologies and if they continue to stay soooooo far to the right they will get smoked worse and worse in every national election that comes along. That is unless they find a way to mess with the districting of the electorial college to cheat their way to victory.


Acting like Democrats is not the pathway to victory for the GOP. I'll leave it at that. You want an entitlement state that can't even come close to affording it's own government? I think somebody needs to re-think what needs to "change."

 

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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 01:28 PM
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Acting like Democrats is not the pathway to victory for the GOP. I'll leave it at that. You want an entitlement state that can't even come close to affording it's own government?

Neither is the same old tired rhetoric and buzz words. Entitlement state, puhhhlease.

[Edited on 2/28/2013 by gondicar]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 01:52 PM
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Acting like Democrats is not the pathway to victory for the GOP. I'll leave it at that. You want an entitlement state that can't even come close to affording it's own government?

Neither is the same old tired rhetoric. Entitlement state, puhhhlease.


Tired rhetoric? A quick look of some key data, traditional measures and statistics would support my viewpoint as far as that trend line is concerned and......Whooops, never mind. Those are only meaningful when a Republican is in the WH. Sorry, I forgot.

Tired rhetoric - You mean like playing the race card every time somebody sneezes?

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 02:09 PM
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quote:
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The real fireworks begin if and when Christie chooses to challenge ideology, old schoolers, & Tea Baggers. The real question is - Does the GOP want to cling to its past or put up a candidate that can appeal to more than a rigid base? You can no longer win with just the conservative vote. This puts the GOP in a difficult position.


I believe you have to win your base first, and always will. If you're unwilling to do that why run at all? As far as your "fireworks" - Christie is a tax cutter, budget balancer, regulation easer, bureaucracy trimmer, takes on unions, and is certainly not PC. Hardly left wing or centrist attributes. Conservatism flows from him, and he's much more likely to challenge the disadvantages of say, an entitlement state - than challenge those who share his views to a large extent.



The way it looks now with the tea party and the farthest to the right controlling things I doubt that Christie could ever get the GOP nomination. Seems to me like they are doubling down on the same far right whacko list of clowns and their extreme ideologies. Not that I think Christie unless he was willing to move more center would even have a chance against someone like Clinton but he would certainly have a better chance than any of the others on that CPAC list.


3 years is a long time from now, but if Clinton decides to run I'm not sure anybody will beat her. If Clinton doesn't run, I think Christie would have an excellent chance against whatever Democrat gets nominated, assuming Christie can get the nomination (which I'm not sure he can). But what do I know? With the exception of 2004, my candidate has won the popular vote in every election I've voted in starting in 1984.

 

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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 02:45 PM
Until the GOP frames the debate around Conservatism vs Liberalism rather than the Republican Party vs the Democratic Party they will probably not make much headway.

The nation is not struggling because Congress and the President are not getting along, but because Liberalism is winning. As long as that is the case, the chance for reversal is slim and none. The economy will continue to stagnate, neccessary reforms will be kicked further down the road, and the hole will continue to get deeper. Bank it.

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 03:48 PM
quote:
quote:
The real fireworks begin if and when Christie chooses to challenge ideology, old schoolers, & Tea Baggers. The real question is - Does the GOP want to cling to its past or put up a candidate that can appeal to more than a rigid base? You can no longer win with just the conservative vote. This puts the GOP in a difficult position.




I believe you have to win your base first, and always will. If you're unwilling to do that why run at all? As far as your "fireworks" - Christie is a tax cutter, budget balancer, regulation easer, bureaucracy trimmer, takes on unions, and is certainly not PC. Hardly left wing or centrist attributes. Conservatism flows from him, and he's much more likely to challenge the disadvantages of say, an entitlement state - than challenge those who share his views to a large extent.


Based upon the characteristics you describe of CC, then it seems he should have been invited to attend CPAC. Maybe it's all the ideological rhetoric that the GOP loves so much that CC doesn't fit? Enough to leave him off the agenda?

 

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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 03:50 PM
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Until the GOP frames the debate around Conservatism vs Liberalism rather than the Republican Party vs the Democratic Party they will probably not make much headway.

I think that's exactly what they have been doing. In fact I think they won the House in 2010 on the backs of the Tea Party by doing exactly that. However, one of the things I think is wrong this with strategy is that most people are moderates and don't want to be labeled as conservative or liberal. Unfortunately the rhetoric coming from politcians has become so polarized that it ends up turning more and more people off from politics all together and voter turnout gets depressed like we saw in this last election.

quote:
The nation is not struggling because Congress and the President are not getting along, but because Liberalism is winning. As long as that is the case, the chance for reversal is slim and none. The economy will continue to stagnate, neccessary reforms will be kicked further down the road, and the hole will continue to get deeper. Bank it.

Not sure where to start with this. I guess I'll take the easy way out and just say that the reason why the GOP has not been more successful (no matter how they frame it) is because not enough people share your opinion.



[Edited on 2/28/2013 by gondicar]

 

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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 03:54 PM
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Until the GOP frames the debate around Conservatism vs Liberalism rather than the Republican Party vs the Democratic Party they will probably not make much headway.

The nation is not struggling because Congress and the President are not getting along, but because Liberalism is winning. As long as that is the case, the chance for reversal is slim and none. The economy will continue to stagnate, neccessary reforms will be kicked further down the road, and the hole will continue to get deeper. Bank it.


Wow, what an original idea. The GOP needs to attack liberalism and tell the world that it is responsible for all the countries problems and only conservatism can save this country. Somebody should give this idea to somebody with influence to get out this message. I wonder if someone like Rush Limbaugh could bring this to the attention to the American people. Yeah that's it, once Rush brings out this news to the world you'll win next time for sure.

[Edited on 2/28/2013 by 2112]

[Edited on 2/28/2013 by 2112]

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 06:27 PM
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Until the GOP frames the debate around Conservatism vs Liberalism rather than the Republican Party vs the Democratic Party they will probably not make much headway.

The nation is not struggling because Congress and the President are not getting along, but because Liberalism is winning. As long as that is the case, the chance for reversal is slim and none. The economy will continue to stagnate, neccessary reforms will be kicked further down the road, and the hole will continue to get deeper. Bank it.


Wow. I had to read the above post twice, as I didn't believe what I read the first time. I assume you really mean what you wrote, and didn't post this as a joke. You can't be serious?

The economy and reform are only pieces of a bigger pie of issues. Be it "Republicans" or be it "Conservatism", you can choose your vocabulary choice. The fact of the matter is that country is more moderate and moving even further this way. This is not a far right country. As many have stated on this site, The GOP nor Conservatism appeal to a changing demographic. Cling to Conservatism and see how far you can sell it.

 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 2/28/2013 at 08:54 PM
alloak, you are smart to back Christie. I have to give you some credit, you have more political savvy than some of your fellow Republicans. He really is your best shot in 2016, especially since Rubio showed that he isn't ready for the big time. You should just hope and pray that enough of your fellow Republicans see the light and Christie wins the primary, which is far from a given.

"1. Four million voters couldn't have made a difference? Elections are not won on the popular vote."

We may disagree, but by now you should give me enough credit to know that I understand the electoral college.

First off, if Romney did whatever he had to do to attract those 4 million conservatives, he would certainly have lost at least some of the moderates and independents. Impossible to tell how many, but at least some.

Second, even if Romney won Ohio, Florida and Virginia, he still would have lost, and there weren't really any other states that were that close. Assuming Romney's 4 million extra votes were more or less evenly distributed, he still doesn't win, even without losing a single moderate voter in the process of courting the right.

Winning the base is important. After the first Presidential debate, I myself worried that Obama's base would be disheartened and not show up. Luckily, he did better in the next two, and the Obama campaign did a good job of turning out the base.

However, NO candidate of either party can win the Presidency without winning some of the moderates and centrists that you admit to being "disgruntled" with. I appreciate your honesty, but the disdain that you and many conservatives show for anybody who isn't conservative enough for you will be your undoing.

 
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Zen Peach



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  posted on 3/1/2013 at 11:09 AM
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alloak, you are smart to back Christie. I have to give you some credit, you have more political savvy than some of your fellow Republicans. He really is your best shot in 2016, especially since Rubio showed that he isn't ready for the big time. You should just hope and pray that enough of your fellow Republicans see the light and Christie wins the primary, which is far from a given.



Whoever the Republican nominee turns out to be, I'm holding out hope that his Dem challenger opts for an issue-driven campaign. As opposed to one centered around convincing enough low-information voters that never mind the issues and a plan, the opponent is just a rotten person in general.

I don't have real high hopes of that actually coming to pass, but who knows? We need a serious leader and a serious reformer, not another trendy rock star. I think Christie could get it done, at least get us pointed in the right direction.

 

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  posted on 3/1/2013 at 11:14 AM
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Whoever the Republican nominee turns out to be, I'm holding out hope that his Dem challenger opts for an issue-driven campaign. As opposed to one centered around convincing enough low-information voters that never mind the issues and a plan, the opponent is just a rotten person in general.






Of course. Just like the repubs did with Kerry..........


Low information voter must be the new conservative buzzword...... typical condescending mentality that will keep getting them in trouble....but it must work with the conservative email campaigns - you know, to those high information voters that pass on every email as truth.....

 

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  posted on 3/1/2013 at 12:17 PM
quote:
Until the GOP frames the debate around Conservatism vs Liberalism rather than the Republican Party vs the Democratic Party they will probably not make much headway.

The nation is not struggling because Congress and the President are not getting along, but because Liberalism is winning. As long as that is the case, the chance for reversal is slim and none. The economy will continue to stagnate, neccessary reforms will be kicked further down the road, and the hole will continue to get deeper. Bank it.


They did debate around Conservatism vs Liberalism in a big and extreme way, especially socially and that is exactly why they lost. That is what you and the far right don't get. The extreme Conservative ideologies are what is sinking their boat but they are now doubling down and moving even further to the right. If they think this will somehow magically change the majority of people's minds than just go ahead and be stubborn and continue to lose. Nobody says that they have to change completely but the tea party extremists running the show are gonna run that party into the ground. They need to listen to the more moderate candidates who are conservative but only to a point. If the tea party extremists are allowed to continue to call the shots for the GOP they are finished as far as national elections go unless the GOP have their way with redistricting electorial college districts to swing things their way.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 3/1/2013 at 12:26 PM
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alloak, you are smart to back Christie. I have to give you some credit, you have more political savvy than some of your fellow Republicans. He really is your best shot in 2016, especially since Rubio showed that he isn't ready for the big time. You should just hope and pray that enough of your fellow Republicans see the light and Christie wins the primary, which is far from a given.



Whoever the Republican nominee turns out to be, I'm holding out hope that his Dem challenger opts for an issue-driven campaign. As opposed to one centered around convincing enough low-information voters that never mind the issues and a plan, the opponent is just a rotten person in general.

I don't have real high hopes of that actually coming to pass, but who knows? We need a serious leader and a serious reformer, not another trendy rock star. I think Christie could get it done, at least get us pointed in the right direction.



LOL!!! Obama did run an issue driven campaign. Maybe you just weren't paying attention. The people chose his ideologies over Mr. Flip Flops ideologies, ideologies that seemed to chamge from week to week and in some instances from day to day. Nobody could really know or trust what Romney's actual ideologies were. Now, you could go with someone like Santorum or the other Conservative extremists on that clown list they had up for nomination and we would know what their ideologies are without question but IMO they would have gotten smoked jst as much if not more. As someone else stated above, we are not a far right country and until the right figure that out and move a bit towards the center they will be doomed to the same conclusion IMO.

 

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True Peach



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  posted on 3/1/2013 at 12:29 PM
quote:
Whoever the Republican nominee turns out to be, I'm holding out hope that his Dem challenger opts for an issue-driven campaign. As opposed to one centered around convincing enough low-information voters that never mind the issues and a plan, the opponent is just a rotten person in general.


Are you serious? Strike that, I'm sure you are.

When was the last campaign that was about issues only and didn't involve attack ads from both sides? Certainly not this last one, or any others in recent memory.

The "low-information voter" euphemism that you are parroting lately is a pretty transparant and sanctimonious attempt to put yet another label on poltical opposition.




[Edited on 3/1/2013 by gondicar]

 

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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 3/1/2013 at 03:20 PM
quote:
quote:
Whoever the Republican nominee turns out to be, I'm holding out hope that his Dem challenger opts for an issue-driven campaign. As opposed to one centered around convincing enough low-information voters that never mind the issues and a plan, the opponent is just a rotten person in general.


Are you serious? Strike that, I'm sure you are.

When was the last campaign that was about issues only and didn't involve attack ads from both sides? Certainly not this last one, or any others in recent memory.

The "low-information voter" euphemism that you are parroting lately is a pretty transparant and sanctimonious attempt to put yet another label on poltical opposition.

[Edited on 3/1/2013 by gondicar]


Wasn't the entire GOP campaign about trying to convince low information voters that Obama was an African-born socialist, secret muslim, Anti-christ who is out to destroy America? At least that is what I saw in all the forwarded emails and Facebook posts from my Republican friends.

 

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  posted on 3/1/2013 at 03:25 PM
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alloak, you are smart to back Christie. I have to give you some credit, you have more political savvy than some of your fellow Republicans. He really is your best shot in 2016, especially since Rubio showed that he isn't ready for the big time. You should just hope and pray that enough of your fellow Republicans see the light and Christie wins the primary, which is far from a given.



Whoever the Republican nominee turns out to be, I'm holding out hope that his Dem challenger opts for an issue-driven campaign. As opposed to one centered around convincing enough low-information voters that never mind the issues and a plan, the opponent is just a rotten person in general.

I don't have real high hopes of that actually coming to pass, but who knows? We need a serious leader and a serious reformer, not another trendy rock star. I think Christie could get it done, at least get us pointed in the right direction.



LOL!!! Obama did run an issue driven campaign. Maybe you just weren't paying attention. The people chose his ideologies over Mr. Flip Flops ideologies, ideologies that seemed to chamge from week to week and in some instances from day to day. Nobody could really know or trust what Romney's actual ideologies were. Now, you could go with someone like Santorum or the other Conservative extremists on that clown list they had up for nomination and we would know what their ideologies are without question but IMO they would have gotten smoked jst as much if not more. As someone else stated above, we are not a far right country and until the right figure that out and move a bit towards the center they will be doomed to the same conclusion IMO.


One can only hope for a Santorum & Palin ticket.

 

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  posted on 3/1/2013 at 11:36 PM
quote:
The "low-information voter" euphemism that you are parroting lately is a pretty transparant and sanctimonious attempt to put yet another label on poltical opposition.


Well, ain't that a b!tch....Sort of reminds me what we've heard for about the past 25 years, that Republican voters are a bunch of mind-numbed, lockstep walking numb nuts that can't think for themselves and wait for Rush Limbaugh to tell them what to think. Just one quick example, and I could go on....and on.

 
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