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Author: Subject: RNC Votes To Block CNN, NBC From Hosting Debates

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/20/2013 at 04:53 PM
quote:
This is the core problem with progressives/liberals, and the people they put faith in and vote for. They believe that more legislation and more gov't will fix problems. They believe the promises of politicians that pander to them. They refuse to acknowledge that mountains of legislative history and Federal expansion have brought us exactly where we are. They fail to connect that more of the same only offers politicians and their corporate buddies new opportunities for control and corruption.


You paint with such a broad brush that your words mean nothing. Do you even know any Progressives?

I bet some of your best friends are Progressives.

You can't lay any of your pablum on me.

Are you saying the baggers don't believe the promises of Cantor, Paul, Ryan, Bachman, Palin, and Cruz?

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/20/2013 at 07:26 PM
quote:
quote:
This is the core problem with progressives/liberals, and the people they put faith in and vote for. They believe that more legislation and more gov't will fix problems. They believe the promises of politicians that pander to them. They refuse to acknowledge that mountains of legislative history and Federal expansion have brought us exactly where we are. They fail to connect that more of the same only offers politicians and their corporate buddies new opportunities for control and corruption.

You paint with such a broad brush that your words mean nothing. Do you even know any Progressives?

I bet some of your best friends are Progressives.

You can't lay any of your pablum on me.

Are you saying the baggers don't believe the promises of Cantor, Paul, Ryan, Bachman, Palin, and Cruz?

I think the comments are pretty specific without drawing up a whole platform. Educate me otherwise about progressive ideals if you don't think I know what they're saying.

As to the individuals you list, sure some on the right believe what they say. Some of what they say fits the limited gov't/Libertarian/Constitutionalist philosophy.

Here's the difference: there's a reasonably serious effort going on to change the nature of the Republican party in a Libertarian/Constitutionalist direction. It must be of concern to more than a few because the establishment R's and the left ridicule it all the time. Where's a similar effort within the D's if they don't represent what progressives want?

 

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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 8/20/2013 at 08:10 PM
quote:


Here's the difference: there's a reasonably serious effort going on to change the nature of the Republican party in a Libertarian/Constitutionalist direction. It must be of concern to more than a few because the establishment R's and the left ridicule it all the time. Where's a similar effort within the D's if they don't represent what progressives want?


I would agree with you on the first part of your statement - "there's a reasonably serious effort going on to change the nature of the Republican party in a Libertarian/Constitutionalist direction."

I would also state that there are equally counter productive efforts going on within the GOP.

Correct me if I'm wrong - did you say you are from NC? If so, then you should be more than aware of the recent bill signed by the governor to restrict voting, and I'm not talking about voter Id's. There are several provisions that are highly controversial both at the state & local levels in NC. The bill is probably the most restrictive of any passed in this country. We can open a new thread to discuss this if necessary. The point here is that this is a reasonably serious effort by the party to deny people the fundamental right to vote. This is change that will alienate more and more people although it may play well with the base. Is this what Libertarians stand for...I don't think so.

Add in the efforts by the GOP on a state by state basis to close down abortion centers. Again, if you are from NC, then you must be knowledgeable of what Governor McCrory has recently signed in spite of his promises during his campaign not to. Is this what Libertarians stand for...I don't think so.

So, in spite of a faction of the party wishing to advance the party in a Libertarian/Constitutionalist direction, the opposite is also is occurring. It seems the voting and social legislation is in conflict and tramples on individual liberty.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/20/2013 at 08:20 PM
quote:
Here's the difference: there's a reasonably serious effort going on to change the nature of the Republican party in a Libertarian/Constitutionalist direction. It must be of concern to more than a few because the establishment R's and the left ridicule it all the time. Where's a similar effort within the D's if they don't represent what progressives want?


And I hope the movement continues to gain steam. With soaring debt, expansion of government, surveillance of ordinary citizens, the IRS being used as a liberal whipping stick, a myriad of new taxes and regulations, disdain for the separation of powers, the expanding welfare state, and a constant trampling of The Rule of Law and the Constitution; there is no better time to draw a clear line between what the Left and Right stand for.

A move in this direction will hold a much brighter future for the GOP than acting more like Democrats, which our friends on the Left recommend.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/20/2013 at 10:19 PM
quote:
quote:


Here's the difference: there's a reasonably serious effort going on to change the nature of the Republican party in a Libertarian/Constitutionalist direction. It must be of concern to more than a few because the establishment R's and the left ridicule it all the time. Where's a similar effort within the D's if they don't represent what progressives want?


I would agree with you on the first part of your statement - "there's a reasonably serious effort going on to change the nature of the Republican party in a Libertarian/Constitutionalist direction."

I would also state that there are equally counter productive efforts going on within the GOP.

Correct me if I'm wrong - did you say you are from NC? If so, then you should be more than aware of the recent bill signed by the governor to restrict voting, and I'm not talking about voter Id's. There are several provisions that are highly controversial both at the state & local levels in NC. The bill is probably the most restrictive of any passed in this country. We can open a new thread to discuss this if necessary. The point here is that this is a reasonably serious effort by the party to deny people the fundamental right to vote. This is change that will alienate more and more people although it may play well with the base. Is this what Libertarians stand for...I don't think so.

Add in the efforts by the GOP on a state by state basis to close down abortion centers. Again, if you are from NC, then you must be knowledgeable of what Governor McCrory has recently signed in spite of his promises during his campaign not to. Is this what Libertarians stand for...I don't think so.

So, in spite of a faction of the party wishing to advance the party in a Libertarian/Constitutionalist direction, the opposite is also is occurring. It seems the voting and social legislation is in conflict and tramples on individual liberty.

I don't agree with most of what the social conservatives on the right want. They want to use gov't to enforce what their wishes regarding social issues, but not on economic ones. As a Libertarian I would say that gov't has no rights on your body, hence no rights to limit a woman's right to chose.

But that's not what's happening regarding NC's recent actions on abortion. The bill forces abortion clinics to be run to the same standards that hospitals and out-patient facilities are regulated to maintain. That's it. Right to choose is not altered. Don't you want patients to receive the same level of care, cleanliness, and procedures that would be expected of a hospital? Opponents of this are virtually admitting they aren't running to regulated standards. Would you want any woman you care for using abortion facilities where there are questions about the standards they maintain, and they don't have to follow regulated standards?

On the voter issues, we're really going to part company. We've had a couple of decades of continual slippage in the standards of registering to vote. This is one of the most serious and solemn rights of the citizen. But processes have been established that make it easier to register and vote than to buy a beer.

If it were up to me, I'd require citizenship tests to check for competence. Is it just a coincidence that all the folks who argue for looser standards are also aligned with the dependency classes? If someone can't get themselves to a registration event - with all the voter outreach that exists - before an election, and then show ID at the polling place, then they aren't taking the right seriously enough and don't deserve to vote.

I don't buy all this "everybody vote" nonsense. I want more people who care about and understand the issues voting, not more morons voting for nicest head of hair and best smile.

When we've reached the point where a 20-something white kid can go into the local polling place of our black Attorney General and be offered his voting ballot - AND NOT BE ASKED FOR ID - then the standards for voter registration and ID have fallen below any reasonable point. Unless, of course, your goal is voter fraud...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5p70YbRiPw

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 05:18 AM
quote:
Educate me otherwise about progressive ideals if you don't think I know what they're saying.


You say Progressives want bigger government. For me the keystone of progressive thinking is to oppose empire and oppose war. Nothing creates a bigger government than our pursuit and maintenance of empire. Nothing adds to wasteful government spending as much as war.

You made this statement,
quote:
They fail to connect that more of the same only offers politicians and their corporate buddies new opportunities for control and corruption.


Who are you talking about? Wouldn't a law that prohibits politicians from becoming lobbyists go a long way toward curtailing that problem? Yet you seem to think that all laws are bad. That laws equal big government. As a Progressive I know that human beings are flawed. That we are selfish and greedy and without some sort of negative reinforcement will resort to nearly any means to get what we want. That is why we need regulation/laws.

Now here again with the abortion issue you support bigger government...

quote:
The bill forces abortion clinics to be run to the same standards that hospitals and out-patient facilities are regulated to maintain. That's it. Right to choose is not altered. Don't you want patients to receive the same level of care, cleanliness, and procedures that would be expected of a hospital? Opponents of this are virtually admitting they aren't running to regulated standards. Would you want any woman you care for using abortion facilities where there are questions about the standards they maintain, and they don't have to follow regulated standards?


The reality is this bill is designed to close clinics and make it harder for women to get an abortion. How many women have gotten sick from one of these clinics?

You either don't know or are buying the Republican's BS. Just like you are buying it on the voter ID issue.

PEOPLE ARE NOT VOTING ILLEGALLY. IT ISN'T HAPPENING. VOTER ID LAWS ARE DESIGNED TO KEEP AMERICAN CITIZENS FROM VOTING. THAT IS THE INTENT OF ALL THOSE LAWS.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 10:35 AM
Didn't you just say that human beings are flawed and will resort to nearly any means to get what they want and that's why we need regulations?

That being said, seems like you would support common-sense laws designed to protect the integrity of elections. Not to mention regulations on abortion clinics that set a standard for the safety of the patients.

It appears that you're not as insistent on regulations that don't serve your personal political interests.







[Edited on 8/21/2013 by alloak41]

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 11:02 AM
quote:
You say Progressives want bigger government. For me the keystone of progressive thinking is to oppose empire and oppose war.

These are foreign policy issues, and while I agree, it's the domestic issues that concern me more.

quote:
Nothing creates a bigger government than our pursuit and maintenance of empire. Nothing adds to wasteful government spending as much as war.

Not supported by numerical facts. While we spend an obscene amount on the military and intelligence infrastructures, far more of the Federal gov't is organized around social services. 2/3rds of what Washington spends goes to social programs.

quote:
Who are you talking about? Wouldn't a law that prohibits politicians from becoming lobbyists go a long way toward curtailing that problem?

The same people writing such a law have exempted themselves from everything that would limit their power for decades now. Lobbyists only have something to lobby for because gov't has expanded it's power to every nook and cranny of modern life. Cut that back and there is less reason to lobby.

quote:
Yet you seem to think that all laws are bad. That laws equal big government. As a Progressive I know that human beings are flawed. That we are selfish and greedy and without some sort of negative reinforcement will resort to nearly any means to get what we want. That is why we need regulation/laws.

That's an over simplification. Gov't is a necessary evil, but necessary nonetheless. However, we have clearly exceeded reasonable limits when we have a tax system that even the IRS doesn't understand, an EPA that doesn't account for the economic impact of it's actions, health care laws that take jobs and money from workers, trade policy that doesn't protect American business and jobs, a Dept. of Education that has overseen a 40-year decline in results, and a gov't that creates $0.43 cents of new debt for every dollar it spends. Very little regarding domestic policy created over the last 100 years is working well or headed in the right direction.

quote:
Now here again with the abortion issue you support bigger government...

That's not bigger gov't. It's applying regulation already in place. I can't imagine a better topic that we should agree upon more than the standards used for facilities that operate on people. But if abortion fanatics want to risk patients health to preserve their cause, move to a state that doesn't care. Abortion should be a state issue anyway - not a Federal one. Amazing how so many of the same people want to confiscate the scary black guns used in a infinitesimally small percentage of gun deaths, but are more than pleased to let abortions rage on under any circumstances imaginable.

quote:
PEOPLE ARE NOT VOTING ILLEGALLY. IT ISN'T HAPPENING. VOTER ID LAWS ARE DESIGNED TO KEEP AMERICAN CITIZENS FROM VOTING. THAT IS THE INTENT OF ALL THOSE LAWS.

Common sense should dictate that in a country with millions of illegal aliens, the most basic protection to maintain legal voting should be an ID. It would seem 70-80% of the country agrees....

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-08-11/politics/35492005_1_voter-id- laws-voter-suppression-voter-fraud

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2011/06/10/poll-democrats-an d-republicans-support-a-voter-id-check-law

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/07/26/Poll-Media-Out-of-touch- on-voter-id-laws-83-percent-approve

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/14/13266161-poll-most-favor -voter-id-laws-but-public-awareness-of-their-effect-is-low?lite

http://www.wmur.com/news/politics/poll-shows-support-for-voter-identificati on-law/-/9857748/21268804/-/2n9abtz/-/index.html

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/27/poll-pennsylvanias-voter-i-d- law-has-solid-support/?_r=0

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0412/75300.html

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 11:19 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
I watch a good cross section of all of the cable news stations and FOX is every bit as biased towards the right as NBC is towards the left. As much as they claim not to be FOX is every bit a part of the so called lame stream media as any of the other cable news channels. CNN is somewhere in between. If you are trying to say that shows like Hannity and O'Rielly are fair and balanced as they profess I say BS. Just as much news reported on each as well.

[Edited on 8/18/2013 by sixty8]


I never heard anyone say Sean Hannity is fair and balanced. Nor O'Reilly. They are opinion shows.


Yeah, but in the case of O'Riley you get bombarded with the no spin zone, no bloviating, and fair and balanced bull$hit lines a half a dozen times every single night. A show that is really fair and balanced wouldn't have to remind their audience of that even once. Their audience can or should be able to figure out for themselves whether they are fair and balanced which they are not. The fact that he feels he has to drill that into his audience every night proves that his show is the exact opposite of what he claims. He is a blowhard.


O'Reilly more than most, brings on people who take the opposite tack as him and debates them. This is more than I can say for anyone on MSNBC or CNN.


You mean O'Riley has opposing voices on his show and then bullies them, yells at them always insisting that they are wrong and he is right, and constantly cuts them off not letting them get a word in edge wise. Fair and balanced my @ss. He only has those guests on so he can make the bogus 'fair and balanced ' claim. He is far from the fair and balanced, no spin man he claims to be. He is also far from the Independent he claims to be as I have never once seen him take the left position on any issue.



You could just as easily substitute "Hannity" for "O'Riley" & your post will stay consistent. The difference is that it appears O'Riley seems more intelligent and understands issues better than Hannity. Hannity is just a hack. Best Hannity moments are when he's having lovefest with Ann Coulter or panders to 1/2 Governor Palin.


I actually have more respect for Hannity although I still think he is a douche. The difference between the two is that at least Hannity admits to being far right conservative and wears that on his sleeve. O'Riley claims to be an Independent which he most definitely is not.


So why is Hannity a douche? Just because you don't agree with him? O'Reilly does not claim to be neutral. He claims to be independent which he is in the sense that he regularly takes positions that do not align with either the GOP or conservative ideology. To me he is more of a right leaning populist.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 11:22 AM
quote:
quote:
Educate me otherwise about progressive ideals if you don't think I know what they're saying.


You say Progressives want bigger government. For me the keystone of progressive thinking is to oppose empire and oppose war. Nothing creates a bigger government than our pursuit and maintenance of empire. Nothing adds to wasteful government spending as much as war.

You made this statement,
quote:
They fail to connect that more of the same only offers politicians and their corporate buddies new opportunities for control and corruption.


Who are you talking about? Wouldn't a law that prohibits politicians from becoming lobbyists go a long way toward curtailing that problem? Yet you seem to think that all laws are bad. That laws equal big government. As a Progressive I know that human beings are flawed. That we are selfish and greedy and without some sort of negative reinforcement will resort to nearly any means to get what we want. That is why we need regulation/laws.

Now here again with the abortion issue you support bigger government...

quote:
The bill forces abortion clinics to be run to the same standards that hospitals and out-patient facilities are regulated to maintain. That's it. Right to choose is not altered. Don't you want patients to receive the same level of care, cleanliness, and procedures that would be expected of a hospital? Opponents of this are virtually admitting they aren't running to regulated standards. Would you want any woman you care for using abortion facilities where there are questions about the standards they maintain, and they don't have to follow regulated standards?


The reality is this bill is designed to close clinics and make it harder for women to get an abortion. How many women have gotten sick from one of these clinics?

You either don't know or are buying the Republican's BS. Just like you are buying it on the voter ID issue.

PEOPLE ARE NOT VOTING ILLEGALLY. IT ISN'T HAPPENING. VOTER ID LAWS ARE DESIGNED TO KEEP AMERICAN CITIZENS FROM VOTING. THAT IS THE INTENT OF ALL THOSE LAWS.


People are not illegallty voting? You cannot POSSIBLY be serious. Fraud is RAMPANT. RAMPANT.

 

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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 12:20 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Educate me otherwise about progressive ideals if you don't think I know what they're saying.


You say Progressives want bigger government. For me the keystone of progressive thinking is to oppose empire and oppose war. Nothing creates a bigger government than our pursuit and maintenance of empire. Nothing adds to wasteful government spending as much as war.

You made this statement,
quote:
They fail to connect that more of the same only offers politicians and their corporate buddies new opportunities for control and corruption.


Who are you talking about? Wouldn't a law that prohibits politicians from becoming lobbyists go a long way toward curtailing that problem? Yet you seem to think that all laws are bad. That laws equal big government. As a Progressive I know that human beings are flawed. That we are selfish and greedy and without some sort of negative reinforcement will resort to nearly any means to get what we want. That is why we need regulation/laws.

Now here again with the abortion issue you support bigger government...

quote:
The bill forces abortion clinics to be run to the same standards that hospitals and out-patient facilities are regulated to maintain. That's it. Right to choose is not altered. Don't you want patients to receive the same level of care, cleanliness, and procedures that would be expected of a hospital? Opponents of this are virtually admitting they aren't running to regulated standards. Would you want any woman you care for using abortion facilities where there are questions about the standards they maintain, and they don't have to follow regulated standards?


The reality is this bill is designed to close clinics and make it harder for women to get an abortion. How many women have gotten sick from one of these clinics?

You either don't know or are buying the Republican's BS. Just like you are buying it on the voter ID issue.

PEOPLE ARE NOT VOTING ILLEGALLY. IT ISN'T HAPPENING. VOTER ID LAWS ARE DESIGNED TO KEEP AMERICAN CITIZENS FROM VOTING. THAT IS THE INTENT OF ALL THOSE LAWS.


People are not illegallty voting? You cannot POSSIBLY be serious. Fraud is RAMPANT. RAMPANT.


Where are the statistics to support your charge of "RAMPANT" ?

In North Carolina in 2012 there were approximately 125 cases of "potential" fraud based upon nearly 7 million voters. That's a statistically insignificant number. But the far right legislature & GOP governor passed the most sweeping voter law in the country. For the record I have no problem with Id's. It's all the rest of the gimmicks that have passed. I don't see how anyone cannot deny that these actions are aimed at keeping voters away from the poll. Read this article and look at the list. Voting is a right. Bull shi$ with the Governor signing this repulsive bill. I hope this finishes his political career.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/175441/north-carolina-passes-countrys-worst-v oter-suppression-law#

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 12:47 PM
How can it be termed as "voter suppression" when the same rules apply to everyone? Being that every voter must follow the same rules, either all voters are being suppressed or none of them are. Tricked-up language that means essentially nothing.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 03:13 PM
quote:
Common sense should dictate that in a country with millions of illegal aliens, the most basic protection to maintain legal voting should be an ID. It would seem 70-80% of the country agrees....


Common sense should stem from facts. There have only been ten cases of in person voter fraud since the year 2000. Follow the link below to see them. As a "constitutionalist" you should support every person's right to vote. There should not be added restrictions. Again you support a law for a problem that doesn't exist. Just like with the abortion clinic issue. It isn't about clean clinics. The clinics are clean. Women are not getting sick from the procedure. What the States are doing are imposing surgical standards where they do not need to exist in order to make it nearly impossible for women to get the care they deserve.

There was a time when I thought the Libertarians were getting it right. Then Ron Paul and Rand Paul and other "Constitutionalists" (Read you) starting bending the rules to pervert the Constitution into letting them invade women's bodies and people's bedrooms.

http://assets.news21.com/fraud/?category=3&type=&status=&offset =0&query=&state=&year=#

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 03:14 PM
quote:
People are not illegallty voting? You cannot POSSIBLY be serious. Fraud is RAMPANT. RAMPANT.


Ten cases of in person voter fraud since the year 2000... "RAMPANT. RAMPANT." Wow.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 03:20 PM
quote:
quote:
You say Progressives want bigger government. For me the keystone of progressive thinking is to oppose empire and oppose war.

These are foreign policy issues, and while I agree, it's the domestic issues that concern me more.

quote:
Nothing creates a bigger government than our pursuit and maintenance of empire. Nothing adds to wasteful government spending as much as war.

Not supported by numerical facts. While we spend an obscene amount on the military and intelligence infrastructures, far more of the Federal gov't is organized around social services. 2/3rds of what Washington spends goes to social programs.


These foreign policy issues impact domestic issues. We are spending to rebuild the infrastructure of Iraq and Afghanistan to the detriment of our own infrastructure. They are getting new hydroelectric dams, sewer and water systems, roads, bridges while our country is falling apart.

I believe your numbers on what is spent on social services includes social security. That is a separate resource. I also believe that the secret budgets for intelligence, CIA, NSA, etc., are massive. Yet we will never know how much is spent on all sorts of programs. Including secret weapons development.

 

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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 04:06 PM
quote:
How can it be termed as "voter suppression" when the same rules apply to everyone? Being that every voter must follow the same rules, either all voters are being suppressed or none of them are. Tricked-up language that means essentially nothing.


I doubt you're as naive as your post. Let me spell it for you - TARGET VOTERS THAT THE GOP CAN'T CAPTURE. Your math of "all are none would" be disputed by the same GOP legislators who dreamed up this legislation. If you are right, then what is the true purpose in North Carolina of making voting more difficult and finding a solution for a problem that doesn't exist? I could write a paragraph on each pathetic point of the legislation and disprove every point and your "applies to everyone" simplification, but I'd be wasting my time.

We should be be attempting to get everyone possible involved in the political process and increase voting - not create more and more restrictive laws hiding behind the term "fraud prevention". Tell us why when people look at the map of the US, it is the GOP dominated states that consistently make these laws? And please don't insult peoples' intelligence by using inverted responses such as "it benefits the Democratic candidates to allow fraud because these are the voters who vote for their candidates & the GOP is only trying to prevent this by having clean elections".

[Edited on 8/21/2013 by MartinD28]

 

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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 04:11 PM
quote:
quote:
Common sense should dictate that in a country with millions of illegal aliens, the most basic protection to maintain legal voting should be an ID. It would seem 70-80% of the country agrees....


Common sense should stem from facts. There have only been ten cases of in person voter fraud since the year 2000. Follow the link below to see them. As a "constitutionalist" you should support every person's right to vote. There should not be added restrictions. Again you support a law for a problem that doesn't exist. Just like with the abortion clinic issue. It isn't about clean clinics. The clinics are clean. Women are not getting sick from the procedure. What the States are doing are imposing surgical standards where they do not need to exist in order to make it nearly impossible for women to get the care they deserve.

There was a time when I thought the Libertarians were getting it right. Then Ron Paul and Rand Paul and other "Constitutionalists" (Read you) starting bending the rules to pervert the Constitution into letting them invade women's bodies and people's bedrooms.

http://assets.news21.com/fraud/?category=3&type=&status=&offset =0&query=&state=&year=#


How low the bar has fallen. Property requirements are a restriction. Literacy tests are a restriction. These are forbidden by the constitution. Proof of indentity is not a restriction and there can be no possible legitimate reason to oppose it except the desire to commit fraud in the furtherance of one's electoral goals.

 

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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 04:12 PM
quote:
quote:
People are not illegallty voting? You cannot POSSIBLY be serious. Fraud is RAMPANT. RAMPANT.


Ten cases of in person voter fraud since the year 2000... "RAMPANT. RAMPANT." Wow.

That's total bull. I don't even know what that means. Please cite your source for that. There were probably more than ten cases in my own voting district in the last election.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 04:14 PM
quote:
quote:
How can it be termed as "voter suppression" when the same rules apply to everyone? Being that every voter must follow the same rules, either all voters are being suppressed or none of them are. Tricked-up language that means essentially nothing.


I doubt you're as naive as your post. Let me spell it for you - TARGET VOTERS THAT THE GOP CAN'T CAPTURE. Your math of "all are none would" be disputed by the same GOP legislators who dreamed up this legislation. If you are right, then what is the true purpose in North Carolina of making voting more difficult and finding a solution for a problem that doesn't exist? I could write a paragraph on each pathetic point of the legislation and disprove every point and your "applies to everyone" simplification, but I'd be wasting my time.

We should be be attempting to get everyone possible involved in the political process and increase voting - not create more and more restrictive laws hiding behind the term "fraud prevention". Tell us why when people look at the map of the US, it is the GOP dominated states that consistently make these laws? And please don't insult peoples' intelligence by using inverted responses such as "it benefits the Democratic candidates to allow fraud because these are the voters who vote for their candidates & the GOP is only trying to prevent this by having clean elections".

[Edited on 8/21/2013 by MartinD28]


Yeah like Democrats who vote twice and unregistered or non-citizens who vote. Those are hard for the GOP to capture. You have failed to articulate one single reason why a person should not show a piece of ID before voting when ID is required constantly for many many different things. In what way does the requirement of showing id "target" anyone?

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 04:30 PM
quote:
We should be be attempting to get everyone possible involved in the political process and increase voting

It depends on how one defines "attempting". Why "everyone possible" and not "everyone interested"?

We should offer a reasonable process for all qualified citizens who want to vote to be able to register and vote. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have to make some effort to do it. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't be required to prove who they are before being allowed to vote.

Those who don't want to at least make the minuscule effort today's process requires can't be taken as serious in wanting "to be involved in the political process". Those who scream that even those low standards are too much should expect than many will be suspicious of their intentions.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 04:39 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
People are not illegallty voting? You cannot POSSIBLY be serious. Fraud is RAMPANT. RAMPANT.


Ten cases of in person voter fraud since the year 2000... "RAMPANT. RAMPANT." Wow.

That's total bull. I don't even know what that means. Please cite your source for that. There were probably more than ten cases in my own voting district in the last election.


As a courtesy, you could perhaps cite something to support your own all caps proclamations...

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 04:45 PM
quote:
quote:
We should be be attempting to get everyone possible involved in the political process and increase voting

It depends on how one defines "attempting". Why "everyone possible" and not "everyone interested"?

We should offer a reasonable process for all qualified citizens who want to vote to be able to register and vote. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have to make some effort to do it. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't be required to prove who they are before being allowed to vote.

Those who don't want to at least make the minuscule effort today's process requires can't be taken as serious in wanting "to be involved in the political process". Those who scream that even those low standards are too much should expect than many will be suspicious of their intentions.


This issue is one that should be discussed outside of the firmly entrenched partisan guidelines. Sadly, that won't happen. The overreaching stereotypes and labels have dissolved any hope of critical and worthwhile discussions, on this issue and practically all others.

 

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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 05:21 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
How can it be termed as "voter suppression" when the same rules apply to everyone? Being that every voter must follow the same rules, either all voters are being suppressed or none of them are. Tricked-up language that means essentially nothing.


I doubt you're as naive as your post. Let me spell it for you - TARGET VOTERS THAT THE GOP CAN'T CAPTURE. Your math of "all are none would" be disputed by the same GOP legislators who dreamed up this legislation. If you are right, then what is the true purpose in North Carolina of making voting more difficult and finding a solution for a problem that doesn't exist? I could write a paragraph on each pathetic point of the legislation and disprove every point and your "applies to everyone" simplification, but I'd be wasting my time.

We should be be attempting to get everyone possible involved in the political process and increase voting - not create more and more restrictive laws hiding behind the term "fraud prevention". Tell us why when people look at the map of the US, it is the GOP dominated states that consistently make these laws? And please don't insult peoples' intelligence by using inverted responses such as "it benefits the Democratic candidates to allow fraud because these are the voters who vote for their candidates & the GOP is only trying to prevent this by having clean elections".

[Edited on 8/21/2013 by MartinD28]


Yeah like Democrats who vote twice and unregistered or non-citizens who vote. Those are hard for the GOP to capture. You have failed to articulate one single reason why a person should not show a piece of ID before voting when ID is required constantly for many many different things. In what way does the requirement of showing id "target" anyone?


If you took the time to read one of my earlier posts in this thread you would have seen these lines, " For the record I have no problem with Id's. It's all the rest of the gimmicks that have passed. I don't see how anyone cannot deny that these actions are aimed at keeping voters away from the poll." I am not against voter Id's, but go ahead and state what you want even if incorrect. The post you quoted doesn't even reference voter Id's. It references the difficulty of voting in NC due to the new law.

Have you read the totality of the bullet points related to the North Carolina legislation? If so, then you would see that voter Id's are only one small piece of the pie. It's much of the rest of the legislation that goes to extremes to make voting difficult; not fair. Is that something you believe in, or do you think that we as a country should try to do what we can do expand voting? This is America where voting is a right & privilege. Do we really want to reduce advance voting days, hours, & number of voting locations? Do we want to increase the length of lines on voting (see Florida & Ohio 2012)? On Id's - a college Id from a state school in NC is not good enough? What is the benefit of these types of actions for the voting public? The list goes on. Read it and then maybe you might come away with a different perspective.

 

Peach Extraordinaire



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Posts: 4280
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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 05:26 PM
quote:
quote:
We should be be attempting to get everyone possible involved in the political process and increase voting

It depends on how one defines "attempting". Why "everyone possible" and not "everyone interested"?

We should offer a reasonable process for all qualified citizens who want to vote to be able to register and vote. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have to make some effort to do it. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't be required to prove who they are before being allowed to vote.

Those who don't want to at least make the minuscule effort today's process requires can't be taken as serious in wanting "to be involved in the political process". Those who scream that even those low standards are too much should expect than many will be suspicious of their intentions.


You are correct, and that was my idea too, although not stated as well as possible. I won't criticize you for parsing my words.

 

Maximum Peach



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Posts: 8271
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  posted on 8/21/2013 at 06:42 PM
quote:
That's total bull. I don't even know what that means. Please cite your source for that. There were probably more than ten cases in my own voting district in the last election.


You cut and pasted the cited source in your previous response.

But... here you go...

http://assets.news21.com/fraud/?category=3&type=&status=&offset =0&query=&state=&year=#

quote:
Proof of indentity is not a restriction and there can be no possible legitimate reason to oppose it except the desire to commit fraud in the furtherance of one's electoral goals.


It is a restriction if one doesn't have it. It is also a restriction if your ID is out of State, like my driver's license (GA) in the State of Virginia. I own a home and a car in Georgia as well as in Virginia. I pay property taxes in both States but vote in Virginia. Virginia will recognize my voter ID card, a piece of paper without a picture, not my Georgia license. Which form of identification is easier to copy if I "desire to commit fraud in the furtherance of one's electoral goals."?

There is no reason to create the law because the fraud is not happening at the voting booth. Check the cited source.

Where electoral crimes are being committed is on a much larger scale. Like in Florida where good citizens are being purged from voting rolls because they have the same name as someone who did time in prison. You know, common names, like maybe Doug Horn...

 

____________________
Capitalism will always survive, because socialism will be there to save it.

Ralph Nader's Father


 
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