Don't click or your IP will be banned


Hittin' The Web with the Allman Brothers Band Forum
You are not logged in

< Last Thread   Next Thread ><<  1    2  >>Ascending sortDescending sorting  
Author: Subject: Are there really people out there with "natural" musical talent?

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 25201
(25201 all sites)
Registered: 9/7/2005
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/6/2010 at 01:28 AM
Some don't have natural ability and make it with hard work. Robert Fripp describes himself that way.

some just don't have a chance. my mother and brother are completely tone deaf. can't carry a tune
with a handle.




 

____________________
Keep on Smiling


 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 21383
(21443 all sites)
Registered: 2/9/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/6/2010 at 01:47 AM
Are there really people out there with "natural" musical talent?

Yeah, but I'm going to refer to it as dedication to craft, perseverance & desire.

How bad do you want it?

 

____________________
"Unless we do something about this, my children are going to grow up in a jungle, the jungle being a racial jungle with tensions having built so high that it is going to explode at some point. We have got to make some move on this". - Joe Biden, 1977

 

Extreme Peach



Karma:
Posts: 1485
(1485 all sites)
Registered: 11/8/2008
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/6/2010 at 09:29 AM
quote:
but practice and effort are all. We read stories of Hendrix playing guitar all day, falling asleep wearing his guitar - there ya go.


And Duane wore his guitar to pee.

The answer is talent is innate. You're born with perfect pitch, a great voice, or musical sensibility. To be great, it takes a combination of preserving your talent, developing it, and refining it.

A person can be a competent player through practice and polishing technique, but without that inner sense of "hearing" and "visualizing" the whole, the level is never going to ascend to greatness.

That doesn't mean you can't enjoy performing at whatever your abilities allow. We can't all be great, but we can sure as hell have a lot of fun.

 

World Class Peach



Karma:
Posts: 5342
(5381 all sites)
Registered: 11/29/2001
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/6/2010 at 09:41 AM
Here's a question for you all...
Are there really people who have a natural talent for music?
Or is it just that the ones who seem to have natural talent simply played more growing up, practiced harder, and/or were more dedicated?
Could someone out there who is just an average player (like myself) have become a great player if we had played day and night for years on end?
Or would we have always lagged behind those who had natural ability?
=========================================================
"Could someone out there who is just an average player (like myself) have become a great player if we had played day and night for years on end?"

the short answer is yes to both of your key questions...some are born with something very special.......others can learn, but its never quite the same as those born with music in their head which just pours out them, as if they were just the vessel........

[Edited on 3/6/2010 by PeachNutt]

 

____________________
Please support MusicNeverStops:TheTylerSeamanFoundation:
at www.tylersmusicroom.org

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 19486
(19500 all sites)
Registered: 6/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/6/2010 at 01:52 PM
Jazz great Sonny Rollins is a great example. he reached a certain level of musicianship but realized that he needed to see iof hje could go higher, if he could bring the music he heard in his head out through his instrument. He famously took years off to woodshed and perfect his craft, and one of the notable spots that he did this was on the Williamsburg Bridge in NY.

quote:
Sonny Rollins has constantly fuelled his musical gift with diligence and discipline. So much so that he twice withdrew from the concert scene, including his now legendary “bridge period” of 1959-1961 where he found a spot on New York’s Williamsburg Bridge to commune with his muse. Though now the stuff of lore, Rollins’ reasons were of a more practical nature. “At the very beginning,” he explains, “I woodshedded at home, but the neighbors complained, so I found a spot out there and it became my practice studio. It was perfect, because the walkway lies somewhere between the street level and the underlying commuter train tracks.” During that period he would invite fellow saxmen like Steve Lacy, Jackie McLean and Paul Jeffrey to join him for impromptu sessions. Lacy, for one, remembered it well. “The first time I joined him, I could hardly hear myself for all of the din of the New York harbor, the traffic, boats and what-not, but on subsequent visits I was starting to cut through. And it was then that I finally realized I was developing a sound on my horn.”

While not as apocryphal as it was made out to be, this chapter of Rollins’ life nonetheless enhanced his mystique, and his return to the scene – with a handsome advance for signing with RCA records – enabled him to find peace of mind, and to leave the city after purchasing a property in the countryside. That, together with the guidance of his late spouse, has unquestionably been a significant factor in his longevity in the business. At this juncture, only a few of his contemporaries remain: Ornette Coleman, Cecil Taylor and Bill Dixon, among the music’s radical thinkers; drummers Max Roach (now retired due to ill health) and the still very active Roy Haynes, and saxmen Jimmy Heath and Phil Woods, among Rollins’ fellow bop mainstreamers.

Rollins also made himself scarce in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s, retreating to meditate and purge some of the discontent he had endured, not the least of which was his less-than-satisfactory contract with Impulse Records.


Ambassador for the Ages

Showing no signs of age in conversation, Rollins remains as articulate as ever, and his unique voice remains as resonant as it was in his prime. While his memory is still quite sharp, he is not one to wax nostalgic for too long. He likes to talk about his doings in the here and now, and he is as dedicated to keeping his chops up with the pen as well as with his horn. “I compose every day,” he states, “not just at home, but when I travel as well, and I never go out on the road without manuscript paper.” Yet, when asked if it is harder to be creative in the twilight years, he admits that it takes him more time to compose, or at least to work out “something satisfactory.” Because of this constant focus on his own pursuits, he does not listen to much music – written by others, that is – but tries to keep in touch via old colleagues or his sidemen.

Like most greats, Rollins is a perfectionist, not very fond of listening to his finished recordings, and shows considerable humility in regards to his gift. “I don’t think anyone can reach complete mastery of something like music,” he points out, then tips his cap to his bandmates by stating, “I am very honored to share the stage with my accompanists, all excellent musicians.”

Having been in the business for close to six decades (his first sides were cut in 1949), he considers himself “an ambassador of the golden age of jazz,” and feels a sense of responsibility towards those whose paths he has crossed. “I always try to be at my best, because I do not want to disgrace the music and the people I have come up with and represent, a great number of whom are not with us anymore. I do feel like an elder statesman, and I certainly feel the responsibility of being on time and to honor contracts with concert presenters. All of my life, I’ve been involved in trying to project an honorable image of myself and the music I represent.”

Like all seasoned pros fashioned in the original school of jazz and the university of the clubs, Sonny Rollins had to pay his dues; the challenges he faced in his time were unquestionably more daunting than those faced by students in today’s classroom. He may well be a resilient survivor, but he has also made sound choices to ensure his lasting presence. In art, there is an old cliché that says you need to be damned to be good; Sonny Rollins has proven that one needs to be damned good to make it in this tricky business called jazz.

Sonny Rollins boasts an extensive website, complete with the latest information on his activities, an episodic podcast of reminiscences on his career and testimonials from his sidemen, past and present, as well as from his younger contemporaries.

www.sonnyrollins.com


 

____________________

 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 27533
(27822 all sites)
Registered: 2/18/2006
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/6/2010 at 02:03 PM
I think the really great players and singers are born with a natural talent, however, it doesn't matter how much music you hear in your head if you're not going to learn how to 'write it down'. Duane was an incredible regular and slide guitar player, but he hand to learn how to play before he could access his full potential. Some things you're born with or you're not. I'm one of the 'nots' when it comes to playing music and singing.

 

____________________
Sometimes we can't choose the music life gives us - but we damn sure can choose how we dance!


 

Zen Peach



Karma:
Posts: 15832
(15866 all sites)
Registered: 8/9/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/6/2010 at 02:09 PM
Well, since you asked.

I believe we all live many, many human lifetimes, by our own choosing, and that there are some souls who are musicians. Many have been musicians through many, many lifetimes, and they take to it like a duck to water. Some of them have been mentioned in this thread. I would go so far as to say that Derek is probably someone we've known by another name in another lifetime, whether it be Duane, Mozart, or someone else.

There are also people like me, who enjoy playing music but who just don't have the drive to excel, at least in that area. I'll never be a great bass player, but I still like playing the bass.

 

____________________


 

Extreme Peach



Karma:
Posts: 1707
(1707 all sites)
Registered: 5/25/2007
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/6/2010 at 02:47 PM
annarose3 wanted to know:

quote:
Are there really people out there with "natural" musical talent?



Well, someone has mine!!





 

____________________


 

Ultimate Peach



Karma:
Posts: 3057
(3097 all sites)
Registered: 10/3/2003
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/8/2010 at 01:23 PM
I guess I'm one of those ones with natural ablity.

When I started I just bought a cheap guitar, and small 10 page book that showed the very minimal basics.

Maybe 12 chords

The basics of how to play with a pick

The basics of playing with fingers

The basics of how to play melody up the neck.


Probably 6 months later I was playing ABB songs, Clapton songs, Dylan songs, Neil Young songs, Willie Nelson songs. And I was "making up" guitar instrumentals that acually sounded good.

Whatever ability I have came to me through my mother. She was a self taught piano player. She couldnt read a note of music (I cant either), yet she could sit down and play wonderfully full arrangements of Glenn Miller songs, Nat King Cole songs, Frank Sinatra songs, etc.


[Edited on 3/8/2010 by D28guy]

 

____________________
In my 38th year following the Allman Brothers. Things that "rock"....The Allman Brothers Band, Jam bands, Bluegrass music and Steamboats

 

True Peach



Karma:
Posts: 14246
(14300 all sites)
Registered: 7/17/2002
Status: Online

  posted on 3/8/2010 at 05:11 PM
Natural talent? I once knew a guy who could fart the Star Spangled Banner!

Seriously, I think that some people do have an innate gift. Call it an ear or a knack - but it just seems to come easier to them.

Same with athletics. I work with a high school football program. I've seen kids who hit the weight room and run the bleachers at every given opportunity who just never seem to gain any significant improvement. There are others who party, smoke and drink (yeah - in high school!) who just excel. It just ain't fair!

 

____________________
Music is love, and love is music, if you know what I mean.
People who believe in music are the happiest people I've ever seen.

Bill Ector, Randy Stephens, Dan Hills and a guy named BobO who I never met - Forever in my heart!

 

Maximum Peach



Karma:
Posts: 8440
(8440 all sites)
Registered: 10/12/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/11/2010 at 09:03 AM
I don't think there's any doubt that some have a born knack for picking up a musical instrument more than others do. That said, as goldtop already mentioned, it's still going to take a lot of work to hone that talent. My brother is a prime example of this. He picked up the guitar at 14 and when I first heard him play at 17, in a band, doing all original material, jumping all over the stage, hardly even looking at the guitar, well, I knew that he was something special. I don't believe that anyone advances to that level in three years unless they have some innate talent. He's now been with Alanis Morissette for 8 years although she's done very little in the last two years. Jason is my Dad's and stepmother's kid and his Mom was a professional opera singer before she married my Dad, so he got a musical bloodline which I do not have. Still, he's worked his ass off to get there.

 

____________________
Don't let the sounds of your own wheels
Drive you crazy
Lighten up while you still can
Don't even try to understand
Just find a place to take your stand
And TAKE IT EASY

 

Peach Pro



Karma:
Posts: 429
(429 all sites)
Registered: 1/8/2010
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/11/2010 at 09:49 AM
Can anyone be a great musician? Does Everyone have "IT"
No -- there are all sorts of limitations. Some are severely physically disabled, others intellectually disabled. Others don't have the childhood resources of encouragement and training. Others never develop the intense desire, for whatever reason. There are lots of obstacles out there. The point that I think shines through in all this research is that we need to sweep aside this old notion that most people simply don't have IT. The IT -- the greatness -- is something you acquire, not something you are given or are not given. Some may face too many obstacles to acquire IT but few are born with limitations so severe that the acquisition is inherently impossible.

I personally have spent countless hrs practicing, and I'm aware I lack a certain fluidity to my playing which no amount of practicing can avert.
I can play the notes, but I can't make the music.
I know there is something missing in my DNA that causes this. At the same time i can watch a 8 year old play Chopin perfectly, while he hasn't even been alive the amount of hrs I have practiced!!

* Advanced musicianship requires methodical training and "deliberate practice"
- "Talent proves of no avail in the absence of thousands of hours of practice distributed over a decade or more, as the youngster gains facility in various first- and second-order musical symbol systems.
The very best professional musicians practice the most and the smartest compared to the next best group of professional musicians, who in turn practice more and better than the third-best group. Top musicians consistently require about ten years and 10,000 hours of practice to achieve the height of their virtuoso skill-level.
- Among student musicians, the best ones also practice more than the next-best, who practice more and better than the ones who eventually drop out (Sloboda, Davidson, Howe, and Moore, 1996).
- "Deliberate practice" is qualitatively different from ordinary experience. In ordinary experience, an individual is exposed to certain task demands, spends time attaining proficiency at that task and then plateaus, more or less satisfied with his/her level of competence. Under these passive circumstances, more time spent with the same task after the plateau will not significantly increase skill-level. The skill level becomes autonomous and stable. In contrast, under a regime of deliberate practice, the individual is never quite satisfied and is always pushing a little bit beyond his/her capability, actively and incrementally expanding that capability.
Francis Galton, the father of eugenics and theories of innate talent, suggested that individuals pursuing a skill naturally rise to an innate limit of their capability. The work of Ericsson and others suggests that this is nonsense -- that in many if not most cases these limits are not innate but connected to the quantity and quality of training, and to an individual's level of ambition/determination.

* Musical training physically alters the brain. Accomplished musicians have key differences in their brains -- not from birth but as a direct result of training.

- Right-handers not trained in music show typical right-hemisphere processing, while right-handers trained in music show left-hemisphered dominance (Bever & Chiarello, 1974)

- Cortical representations of fingers of the left hands of string players get significantly enlarged compared to non-musicians -- and moreso for those who train earlier in life. None of this, of course, rules out the possibility of innate talent.

 

____________________
The one thing that doesn't abide by majority rule is a person's conscience."

 

Peach Extraordinaire



Karma:
Posts: 4841
(4909 all sites)
Registered: 4/13/2002
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/11/2010 at 10:49 AM
quote:
Can anyone be a great musician? Does Everyone have "IT"
No -- there are all sorts of limitations. Some are severely physically disabled, others intellectually disabled. Others don't have the childhood resources of encouragement and training. Others never develop the intense desire, for whatever reason. There are lots of obstacles out there. The point that I think shines through in all this research is that we need to sweep aside this old notion that most people simply don't have IT. The IT -- the greatness -- is something you acquire, not something you are given or are not given. Some may face too many obstacles to acquire IT but few are born with limitations so severe that the acquisition is inherently impossible.

I personally have spent countless hrs practicing, and I'm aware I lack a certain fluidity to my playing which no amount of practicing can avert.
I can play the notes, but I can't make the music.
I know there is something missing in my DNA that causes this. At the same time i can watch a 8 year old play Chopin perfectly, while he hasn't even been alive the amount of hrs I have practiced!!

* Advanced musicianship requires methodical training and "deliberate practice"
- "Talent proves of no avail in the absence of thousands of hours of practice distributed over a decade or more, as the youngster gains facility in various first- and second-order musical symbol systems.
The very best professional musicians practice the most and the smartest compared to the next best group of professional musicians, who in turn practice more and better than the third-best group. Top musicians consistently require about ten years and 10,000 hours of practice to achieve the height of their virtuoso skill-level.
- Among student musicians, the best ones also practice more than the next-best, who practice more and better than the ones who eventually drop out (Sloboda, Davidson, Howe, and Moore, 1996).
- "Deliberate practice" is qualitatively different from ordinary experience. In ordinary experience, an individual is exposed to certain task demands, spends time attaining proficiency at that task and then plateaus, more or less satisfied with his/her level of competence. Under these passive circumstances, more time spent with the same task after the plateau will not significantly increase skill-level. The skill level becomes autonomous and stable. In contrast, under a regime of deliberate practice, the individual is never quite satisfied and is always pushing a little bit beyond his/her capability, actively and incrementally expanding that capability.
Francis Galton, the father of eugenics and theories of innate talent, suggested that individuals pursuing a skill naturally rise to an innate limit of their capability. The work of Ericsson and others suggests that this is nonsense -- that in many if not most cases these limits are not innate but connected to the quantity and quality of training, and to an individual's level of ambition/determination.

* Musical training physically alters the brain. Accomplished musicians have key differences in their brains -- not from birth but as a direct result of training.

- Right-handers not trained in music show typical right-hemisphere processing, while right-handers trained in music show left-hemisphered dominance (Bever & Chiarello, 1974)

- Cortical representations of fingers of the left hands of string players get significantly enlarged compared to non-musicians -- and moreso for those who train earlier in life. None of this, of course, rules out the possibility of innate talent.



I like the part about "Deliberate practice". Most of the people that come to me have no idea of how to practice. They just haphazardly pickup the guitar and fumble around...learn some basic blues scales but never really understand how to use that scale or how to make practice a efficient time of learning.

We don't get better while we're practicing...we get better after we practice and the body has time to process what we're trying to teach it. Much in the way a weigh lifter doesn't get stronger during the workout he gains the strength during rest and recovery phase

Having a "way" and method to your practice routine and breaking it up into 10 or 15 minutes sections with rest between give the body a chance to get what you're trying to teach it. If you practice wrong well you're going to teach you're body to do the wrong thing...watch amateur golfers...they take 5 bad practice swings and then hit the ball sideways...look at the pros they take 5 good practice swings and kill the ball. The pro took the time to learn to swing right and didn't make excuses at the driving range for not learning to make a good swing

I do think we are predisposed to talents we like...But do you have the commitment level and desire to do what it takes...and yes some people have more natural ability but I do believe they work to find a away to make it happen....Obviously Mozart, Bach, Aretha and a host of others Like Willie Mays Babe Ruth have an extra thing that excels them to the top of the heap

[Edited on 3/11/2010 by goldtop]

 

____________________
Believin' is alright just don't believe in the wrong thing....Sonny Boy Williamson

 
E-Mail User

Extreme Peach



Karma:
Posts: 1779
(1782 all sites)
Registered: 11/30/2001
Status: Offline

  posted on 3/11/2010 at 11:14 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qTiYA1WiY8

Patrick Henry Hughes, amazing story of someone born with natural music ability. What an inspiration!

 

____________________
And I need you more than want you. And I want you for all time.

 
<<  1    2  >>  


Powered by XForum 1.81.1 by Trollix Software

Privacy | Terms of Service | Report Infringement | Personal Data Management | Contact Us
The ALLMAN BROTHERS BAND name, The ALLMAN BROTHERS name, likenesses, logos, mushroom design and peach truck are all registered trademarks of THE ABB MERCHANDISING CO., INC. whose rights are specifically reserved. Any artwork, visual, or audio representations used on this web site CONTAINING ANY REGISTERED TRADEMARKS are under license from The ABB MERCHANDISING CO., INC. A REVOCABLE, GRATIS LICENSE IS GRANTED TO ALL REGISTERED PEACH CORP MEMBERS FOR The DOWNLOADING OF ONE COPY FOR PERSONAL USE ONLY. ANY DISTRIBUTION OR REPRODUCTION OF THE TRADEMARKS CONTAINED HEREIN ARE PROHIBITED AND ARE SPECIFICALLY RESERVED BY THE ABB MERCHANDISING CO.,INC.
site by Hittin' the Web Group with www.experiencewasabi3d.com