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Author: Subject: It's A Trap!

Universal Peach





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  posted on 6/26/2013 at 05:24 PM
Today's Supreme Court rulings in favor of gay marriage will inspire a lot of passionate reactions on both sides. In particular, the Republican Party, or at least certain elements of it, will be tempted to make defeating gay marriage a centerpiece of their election efforts in 2014 and 2016.

Don't do it! It's a trap! The GOP has some very real issues to run on, including the recent NSA uproar. A libertarian candidate such as Rand Paul, from that wing of the GOP, has a very real chance of being elected President in 2016 if they focus on smaller government, opposing Big Brother, reducing government debt, etc.

I mention this because I know there are many conservatives on this website who claim that their main priorities are economic issues and issues of personal liberty, and not the far right social agenda. I believe you are sincere in your beliefs, but you will have to be vigilant in order to keep the GOP from becoming fixated on making sure that Carl and Sean in Fresno can't get married.

As most here know, I'm no Republican, and President Rand Paul is a scary thought to me in some ways. However, those of you who have talked politics with me on this site also know that I have some idea what I'm talking about, and have worked in politics professionally before. Whether I like it or not, Paul or someone of similar beliefs has a very real chance of winning the White House in 2016, if the Republicans can keep the Christian Coalition types from hijacking their party.

Good luck!

 
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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 6/26/2013 at 05:53 PM
quote:
Today's Supreme Court rulings in favor of gay marriage will inspire a lot of passionate reactions on both sides. In particular, the Republican Party, or at least certain elements of it, will be tempted to make defeating gay marriage a centerpiece of their election efforts in 2014 and 2016.

Don't do it! It's a trap! The GOP has some very real issues to run on, including the recent NSA uproar. A libertarian candidate such as Rand Paul, from that wing of the GOP, has a very real chance of being elected President in 2016 if they focus on smaller government, opposing Big Brother, reducing government debt, etc.

I mention this because I know there are many conservatives on this website who claim that their main priorities are economic issues and issues of personal liberty, and not the far right social agenda. I believe you are sincere in your beliefs, but you will have to be vigilant in order to keep the GOP from becoming fixated on making sure that Carl and Sean in Fresno can't get married.

As most here know, I'm no Republican, and President Rand Paul is a scary thought to me in some ways. However, those of you who have talked politics with me on this site also know that I have some idea what I'm talking about, and have worked in politics professionally before. Whether I like it or not, Paul or someone of similar beliefs has a very real chance of winning the White House in 2016, if the Republicans can keep the Christian Coalition types from hijacking their party.

Good luck!


This is the same GOP where the US House Of Reps. just revisited and passed anti abortion legislation. They have lost the women vote already & will continue to do so.

In spite of the SC decision on gay marriage, why would anyone expect the GOP to go along with it? There exists enough old school thought & bible thumper Republicans to oppose gay marriage. It wouldn't surprise me if they continue to talk against this issue & try back door maneuvers to get around the SC decisions just as they have continued to do so with abortion rights. This will do nothing but lose LGBT & young American voters. Increasingly, the younger generation voters are behind the SC decision.

Throw in immigration - If the House blocks this, then they have zero chance with the Hispanic vote.

Rob, I usually agree with most of what you post, but I'll differ with you on Rand Paul. I doubt the GOP electorate would nominate him. I might eat my hat, but I doubt he has zero chance of being elected president. With that said, I hope they nominate Rand.


 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/26/2013 at 07:20 PM
quote:
Today's Supreme Court rulings in favor of gay marriage will inspire a lot of passionate reactions on both sides. In particular, the Republican Party, or at least certain elements of it, will be tempted to make defeating gay marriage a centerpiece of their election efforts in 2014 and 2016.

Don't do it! It's a trap! The GOP has some very real issues to run on, including the recent NSA uproar. A libertarian candidate such as Rand Paul, from that wing of the GOP, has a very real chance of being elected President in 2016 if they focus on smaller government, opposing Big Brother, reducing government debt, etc.

I mention this because I know there are many conservatives on this website who claim that their main priorities are economic issues and issues of personal liberty, and not the far right social agenda. I believe you are sincere in your beliefs, but you will have to be vigilant in order to keep the GOP from becoming fixated on making sure that Carl and Sean in Fresno can't get married.

As most here know, I'm no Republican, and President Rand Paul is a scary thought to me in some ways. However, those of you who have talked politics with me on this site also know that I have some idea what I'm talking about, and have worked in politics professionally before. Whether I like it or not, Paul or someone of similar beliefs has a very real chance of winning the White House in 2016, if the Republicans can keep the Christian Coalition types from hijacking their party.

Good luck!


Many are saying they want to put Hillary up for President. I'm to the point I'll write in Alex Jones and Jesse Ventura, at least they know what is going on.

 

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Universal Peach



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  posted on 6/26/2013 at 10:02 PM
As the great Jack McCoy said at the end of a LIO episode, "I say let them marry. They can be miserable like the rest of us." Gotta love Jack "Hang 'em High" McCoy!

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/26/2013 at 10:09 PM
quote:
I mention this because I know there are many conservatives on this website who claim that their main priorities are economic issues and issues of personal liberty, and not the far right social agenda. I believe you are sincere in your beliefs, but you will have to be vigilant in order to keep the GOP from becoming fixated on making sure that Carl and Sean in Fresno can't get married.



They'll get passed off as a bunch of religious fanatics no matter what they do or say. You know the drill.

 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 07:24 AM
There is plenty that spin and marketing can do to misrepresent a party or candidate alloak41, but if the GOP allows themselves to get hijacked by religious fanatics, that won't even be necessary.

Conversely, if the GOP decides not to aggressively pursue abolishing gay marriage and other pet issues of the Christian Right, there is a limit to how easy it will be to paint them as a bunch of religious fanatics.

MartinD28, if you think Rand Paul would be easy for the Democrats to defeat, I feel you are wrong. If you think he has no chance of winning the GOP nomination, you are very wrong. He represents the most energized wing of the Republican Party, and in a primary situation, having passionate supporters who will reliably show up to the polls is critical.

I already gave a warning to my Republican friends, here is one for my fellow Democrats: Underestimate Rand Paul at your peril.

 
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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 08:09 AM
quote:
There is plenty that spin and marketing can do to misrepresent a party or candidate alloak41, but if the GOP allows themselves to get hijacked by religious fanatics, that won't even be necessary.

Conversely, if the GOP decides not to aggressively pursue abolishing gay marriage and other pet issues of the Christian Right, there is a limit to how easy it will be to paint them as a bunch of religious fanatics.

MartinD28, if you think Rand Paul would be easy for the Democrats to defeat, I feel you are wrong. If you think he has no chance of winning the GOP nomination, you are very wrong. He represents the most energized wing of the Republican Party, and in a primary situation, having passionate supporters who will reliably show up to the polls is critical.

I already gave a warning to my Republican friends, here is one for my fellow Democrats: Underestimate Rand Paul at your peril.


Rob,

We will agree to disagree. I believe Rand is cut out of the same mold as his father, will attract a following, but will probably never get the nomination.

If by chance he was to get the nomination, his extreme views would hurt him. His civil rights / private ownership comments & beliefs would bite him hard in the general election.

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 08:50 AM
The powers within the GOP would have to be completely flushed with new leadership taking over before Rand would even be considered. While that would be welcome, these are the same people that just a year ago were backing a candidate so stiff and uninspiring that comparing him cardboard would have been a compliment.

The only hope the GOP has is to move Libertarian by focusing on economic and personal freedom. The old guard GOP has too much at stake to let that happen. They like big govt as much as the D's do.

 

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uninsured and then make them pay more to be insured again,
so the original uninsured can be insured for free.

 

Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 11:13 AM
quote:
Today's Supreme Court rulings in favor of gay marriage will inspire a lot of passionate reactions on both sides. In particular, the Republican Party, or at least certain elements of it, will be tempted to make defeating gay marriage a centerpiece of their election efforts in 2014 and 2016.

Don't do it! It's a trap! The GOP has some very real issues to run on, including the recent NSA uproar. A libertarian candidate such as Rand Paul, from that wing of the GOP, has a very real chance of being elected President in 2016 if they focus on smaller government, opposing Big Brother, reducing government debt, etc.

I mention this because I know there are many conservatives on this website who claim that their main priorities are economic issues and issues of personal liberty, and not the far right social agenda. I believe you are sincere in your beliefs, but you will have to be vigilant in order to keep the GOP from becoming fixated on making sure that Carl and Sean in Fresno can't get married.

As most here know, I'm no Republican, and President Rand Paul is a scary thought to me in some ways. However, those of you who have talked politics with me on this site also know that I have some idea what I'm talking about, and have worked in politics professionally before. Whether I like it or not, Paul or someone of similar beliefs has a very real chance of winning the White House in 2016, if the Republicans can keep the Christian Coalition types from hijacking their party.

Good luck!


If the GOP nominates anyone who makes gay marriage the centerpiece of their campaign, they deserve to lose for sure.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 11:15 AM
quote:
The powers within the GOP would have to be completely flushed with new leadership taking over before Rand would even be considered. While that would be welcome, these are the same people that just a year ago were backing a candidate so stiff and uninspiring that comparing him cardboard would have been a compliment.

The only hope the GOP has is to move Libertarian by focusing on economic and personal freedom. The old guard GOP has too much at stake to let that happen. They like big govt as much as the D's do.


The GOP should put together a coalition of those who want strong economic growth with personal libertarianism. That is a winning coalition and can capture the youth vote.

 

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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 03:06 PM
quote:
The powers within the GOP would have to be completely flushed with new leadership taking over before Rand would even be considered. While that would be welcome, these are the same people that just a year ago were backing a candidate so stiff and uninspiring that comparing him cardboard would have been a compliment.

The only hope the GOP has is to move Libertarian by focusing on economic and personal freedom. The old guard GOP has too much at stake to let that happen. They like big govt as much as the D's do.


If that's the case, then explain how is it that the newbies & the Tea Party are rejecting the leadership of the Boehner & other older established Republicans in the House. Boehner & Cantor have had to pull bills from coming to the floor because of lack of support by the new frat boys of "no" who reject anything & everything - even things advocated by their own leadership. This has been a big embarrassment to "leadership".

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 03:40 PM
quote:
quote:
The powers within the GOP would have to be completely flushed with new leadership taking over before Rand would even be considered. While that would be welcome, these are the same people that just a year ago were backing a candidate so stiff and uninspiring that comparing him cardboard would have been a compliment.

The only hope the GOP has is to move Libertarian by focusing on economic and personal freedom. The old guard GOP has too much at stake to let that happen. They like big govt as much as the D's do.

If that's the case, then explain how is it that the newbies & the Tea Party are rejecting the leadership of the Boehner & other older established Republicans in the House. Boehner & Cantor have had to pull bills from coming to the floor because of lack of support by the new frat boys of "no" who reject anything & everything - even things advocated by their own leadership. This has been a big embarrassment to "leadership".

You're answering your own question, and it's obvious if one understands the political alignments. Old line GOP in the House - Boehner and his croneys - are essentially D's of a slightly different stripe. They like the power, control, endless spending, endless war, dependency, and big govt just like the D's do. They don't give a hoot about liberty, limited govt, sound currency, or debt reduction. Not in any serious way at least. They're happy to trade off control once and a while with the D's so that some of their friends get a little govt loving too (pork, grants, subsidies, etc).

Some of the new R's want to really stand for an alternative to Washington as it's been run for the past decades. The cliff is coming, it's obvious to anyone paying attention, and they want to change course before we go over. So the split in the GOP is between these factions, and the historic GOP leadership is doing everything they can to piss off the only passionate part of the base that they have because to accept them would mean aligning with ideas that reduce political power - can't have that!

I hope it ends in a 3rd party that stands for economic and personal liberty, Constitutional principles, and sound money. That would put the nails in the GOP coffin and offer a real alternative to the tired D's who want only more spending, more control, and more Fed funny money.


[Edited on 6/27/2013 by Fujirich]

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 04:13 PM
Unless the GOP stops with their attack on women I don't forsee much hope for the party. The more they keep up the ridiculous legislation the angrier and more involved women are becoming.

 

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World Class Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 04:36 PM
I agree with everything here, except for Rand Paul being able to win. If the GOP backs away from the Bible belt religious right, and focus on economics, they have a good chance of winning. Heck, even I would vote for Christie. But, in my opinion, I don't think they have the guts or smarts to build this type of platform. They are too scared, not smart enough to recognize the strength in doing so.
 

Peach Master



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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 04:41 PM
this whole thing is ridiculous..the government over reach in every aspect of our lives is unbelievable..what people do in their personal life is nobody's business but there own..why should i care what people do? as long as it doesn't interfere with my pursuit of happiness or way of life i see no problem..everyone should be able to live the way they want..i hope gary johnson runs in 2016
 

True Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 04:45 PM
The GOP have been sent a message in the last two general elections. If they continue to ignore those messages and move further and further to the right or even just stay where they are on issues like gay rights, immigration reform, women's rights and some other issues including the economy they may never win another general election with the changing demographics in this country. They need to take their party back from the control of the minority tea party. That would be a good start.

 

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Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 05:13 PM
quote:
The GOP have been sent a message in the last two general elections. If they continue to ignore those messages and move further and further to the right or even just stay where they are on issues like gay rights, immigration reform, women's rights and some other issues including the economy they may never win another general election with the changing demographics in this country. They need to take their party back from the control of the minority tea party. That would be a good start.

So a good start would be to become Democrats? lol

The old moderate GOP needs to die, and fast. There's not enough choice between dumb and dumberer.

But even with that, your memory seems to be a bit selective. They won the midterms, taking the House and gaining in the Senate. They control the majority of Governorships. While BO took the majority vote, the GOP took the majority of districts. Methinks it's a bit too early to predict their doom.

But my preference would still be for Libertarians to rise and replace the GOP, proving genuine difference between the parties.

 

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Peach Extraordinaire



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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 05:32 PM
quote:
quote:
The GOP have been sent a message in the last two general elections. If they continue to ignore those messages and move further and further to the right or even just stay where they are on issues like gay rights, immigration reform, women's rights and some other issues including the economy they may never win another general election with the changing demographics in this country. They need to take their party back from the control of the minority tea party. That would be a good start.

So a good start would be to become Democrats? lol

The old moderate GOP needs to die, and fast. There's not enough choice between dumb and dumberer.

But even with that, your memory seems to be a bit selective. They won the midterms, taking the House and gaining in the Senate. They control the majority of Governorships. While BO took the majority vote, the GOP took the majority of districts. Methinks it's a bit too early to predict their doom.

But my preference would still be for Libertarians to rise and replace the GOP, proving genuine difference between the parties.


Following up on your response to sixty8, you exclude the fact that in the elections of 2012 that the GOP lost 2 seats in the Senate and 13 in the House.

Their doom - you are probably right. However the appeal and demographic is narrowing for the party.

It will probably take another 50 to 100 years to flush out the outdated mindsets and resistance to gay rights, women's choice, and whatever immigration reform occurs. By then, the next generations will look back & wonder how narrow minded their parents & grandparents were. The future is with the youth, and they are open minded.

 

Universal Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 06:31 PM
"The only hope the GOP has is to move Libertarian by focusing on economic and personal freedom."

That is more or less what I wanted to say, Fujirich.

"The old guard GOP has too much at stake to let that happen."

I also agree with this, and that is why sane conservatives like you and dougrhon need to do what Doug said...

"The GOP should put together a coalition of those who want strong economic growth with personal libertarianism."

Or failing that, back to Fujirich for this quote....

"I hope it ends in a 3rd party that stands for economic and personal liberty, Constitutional principles, and sound money."

I certainly believe there is an opening for such a party in American politics, and frankly I don't see any way for the GOP to keep from splintering into two different parties at this point.

As for John Boehner and his leadership, or lack thereof, the answer to this question....

"explain how is it that the newbies & the Tea Party are rejecting the leadership of the Boehner & other older established Republicans in the House."

...lies squarely in what Rachel Maddow has called "The 'John Boehner Is Bad At His Job' Hypothesis."

Regardless of what you think of Boehner's beliefs, his genuine incompetence at running the House of Representatives is hard to overstate. Sure, there are a lot of conflicting forces at work in the GOP, and that's part of it. But a lot of it is just that Boehner is a hack who should never have risen to a higher post than city councilman, and even other Republicans can see that.

It would be tough for anybody, no matter how skilled a politician, to get party unity from the GOP at this point. But John Boehner? That is like sending a child to do grown man's work.

 
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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 06:54 PM
quote:


As for John Boehner and his leadership, or lack thereof, the answer to this question....

"explain how is it that the newbies & the Tea Party are rejecting the leadership of the Boehner & other older established Republicans in the House."

...lies squarely in what Rachel Maddow has called "The 'John Boehner Is Bad At His Job' Hypothesis."

Regardless of what you think of Boehner's beliefs, his genuine incompetence at running the House of Representatives is hard to overstate. Sure, there are a lot of conflicting forces at work in the GOP, and that's part of it. But a lot of it is just that Boehner is a hack who should never have risen to a higher post than city councilman, and even other Republicans can see that.

It would be tough for anybody, no matter how skilled a politician, to get party unity from the GOP at this point. But John Boehner? That is like sending a child to do grown man's work.


Agree that Boehner is not a great leader. On the other side of the coin, he has been dealt a bad deck of players to help move legislation. He has attempted to work with the executive branch, but his caucus is out of control. They would just as soon the country fail & default. That has been proven. The record speaks for itself.

Just out of curiosity, do you think Cantor is any better than Boehner? Remember, we may have had a grand bargain if it wasn't for Cantor undercutting Boehner. Cantor at the White House meetings made a fool of himself. Who in the House GOP do you think has the credentials & leadership potential to lead this posse? There really needs to be someone to lead, and I'm not sure who in the majority is that person.

 

Maximum Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 07:08 PM
quote:
I also agree with this, and that is why sane conservatives like you and dougrhon need to do what Doug said...

"The GOP should put together a coalition of those who want strong economic growth with personal libertarianism."

The unfortunate part of the Tea Party is that while their hearts are in the right place regarding excess gov't, I believe too few would coalesce around a set of principles or specific changes they would make to downsize the monstrosity. They know it's out of control, which is better than many. But they're unorganized in their solutions to address the issues. Then again, they are a young and unorganized group. Not even a real political party at this point.

Where I think they really go wrong is not defining personal freedom in terms all could live with. I respect their religious and right-to-life beliefs. They are free to live them. They need to let others be free to live differing beliefs, as long as there is no physical or financial harm to either party in doing so. As it stands, they define freedom as being left alone to do what they want. A better viewpoint would be to see it from a neighbor's position. If you act in ways to ensure your neighbor's continued freedom, chances are that yours will be protected too.

 

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Obamacare: To insure the uninsured, we first make the insured
uninsured and then make them pay more to be insured again,
so the original uninsured can be insured for free.

 

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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 07:24 PM
quote:
The future is with the youth, and they are open minded.

I don't think they're very open-minded at all. Most are being brainwashed in gov't controlled schools to believe gov't is the answer to everything. The PC progressive agenda is being shoved down their throats. Totalitarian authority is being impressed on their little minds from the get-go: 6 year-old Jimmy makes the fingers of his hand look like a gun and little Jimmy is promptly suspended. Nothing like a bunch of progressives to establish a system of no tolerance for things they don't like.

They're being molded into the nice little compliant automatons their gov't wants them to be. While it's cool that they have less trouble with the gay or racial issues of the past, those things are meaningless against an economic environment with no opportunity and enslavement to a debt that will consume all.

 

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so the original uninsured can be insured for free.

 

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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 08:08 PM
quote:
quote:
The future is with the youth, and they are open minded.

I don't think they're very open-minded at all. Most are being brainwashed in gov't controlled schools to believe gov't is the answer to everything. The PC progressive agenda is being shoved down their throats. Totalitarian authority is being impressed on their little minds from the get-go: 6 year-old Jimmy makes the fingers of his hand look like a gun and little Jimmy is promptly suspended. Nothing like a bunch of progressives to establish a system of no tolerance for things they don't like.

They're being molded into the nice little compliant automatons their gov't wants them to be. While it's cool that they have less trouble with the gay or racial issues of the past, those things are meaningless against an economic environment with no opportunity and enslavement to a debt that will consume all.


Really???? I had to read your post twice to see that you actually stated this stuff. So you give no credit for youth to able to be taught yet to think or question for themselves, to determine right from wrong, what's best for themselves & their fellow man, how to improve upon existing conditions and systems?

News flash - The government does not control mindsets. If you want to think so, and if it justifies your points of view, more power to you. We are not a society of robots.

Yep, it's all some progressive conspiracy to ramrod a predefined and controlled mindset into the young of this country. Laughable that you refer to progressives and no tolerance in the same sentence. So, does that mean that you think conservatives are individuals who are accepting of others unlike themselves & exhibit traits of tolerance that these progressives don't possess?

In spite of your minimization of racial and social issues, they play as big a part of our future as the economy, opportunities, and debt to which you allude. However, there must be a balance of all of these factors to advance a society.

 

Sublime Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 08:20 PM
I am pretty sure if a Republican wins, meet the new boss, same as the old boss. The only way for the people to take back the Presidency would be for a third party candidate to win. Good luck beating the machine, it isn't going to happen.

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 6/27/2013 at 10:08 PM
quote:
quote:
The GOP have been sent a message in the last two general elections. If they continue to ignore those messages and move further and further to the right or even just stay where they are on issues like gay rights, immigration reform, women's rights and some other issues including the economy they may never win another general election with the changing demographics in this country. They need to take their party back from the control of the minority tea party. That would be a good start.

So a good start would be to become Democrats? lol

The old moderate GOP needs to die, and fast. There's not enough choice between dumb and dumberer.



Exactly right.

The claim that the GOP has made some drastic shift to the right is a real head shaker. Is this the same GOP that ran John McCain and Mitt Romney? Wow.

Run another centrist or moderate and that'll make it three in a row.

 
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