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Author: Subject: Edward Snowden Is No Traitor

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  posted on 7/16/2013 at 10:53 AM
Excellent editorial by former CIA officer, Philip Giraldi and a sobering, and all to true responds from a reader named Aaron Paolozzi, which I could not have said any better my self.

quote:
Edward Snowden Is No Traitor

Why treason charges against the NSA whistleblower don't hold up
By Philip Giraldi • July 16, 2013

There are a number of narratives being floated by the usual suspects to attempt to demonstrate that Edward Snowden is a traitor who has betrayed secrets vital to the security of the United States. All the arguments being made are essentially without merit. Snowden has undeniably violated his agreement to protect classified information, which is a crime. But in reality, he has revealed only one actual secret that matters, which is the United States government’s serial violation of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution through its collection of personal information on millions of innocent American citizens without any probable cause or search warrant.

That makes Snowden a whistleblower, as he is exposing illegal activity on the part of the federal government. The damage he has inflicted is not against U.S. national security but rather on the politicians and senior bureaucrats who ordered, managed, condoned, and concealed the illegal activity.

First and foremost among the accusations is the treason claim being advanced by such legal experts as former Vice President Dick Cheney, Speaker of the House John Boehner, and Senator Dianne Feinstein. The critics are saying that Snowden has committed treason because he has revealed U.S. intelligence capabilities to groups like al-Qaeda, with which the United States is at war. Treason is, in fact, the only crime that is specifically named and described in the Constitution, in Article III: “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.”

Whether Washington is actually at war with al-Qaeda is, of course, debatable since there has been no declaration of war by Congress as required by Article I of the Constitution. Congress has, however, passed legislation, including the Authorization for Use of Military Force, empowering the President to employ all necessary force against al-Qaeda and “associated” groups; this is what Cheney and the others are relying on to establish a state of war.

But even accepting the somewhat fast and loose standard for being at war, it is difficult to discern where Snowden has been supporting the al-Qaeda and “associated groups” enemy. Snowden has had no contact with al-Qaeda and he has not provided them with any classified information. Nor has he ever spoken up on their behalf, given them advice, or supported in any way their activities directed against the United States. The fallback argument that Snowden has alerted terrorists to the fact that Washington is able to read their emails and listen in on their phone conversations—enabling them to change their methods of communication—is hardly worth considering, as groups like al-Qaeda have long since figured that out. Osama bin Laden, a graduate in engineering, repeatedly warned his followers not to use phones or the Internet, and he himself communicated only using live couriers. His awareness of U.S. technical capabilities was such that he would wear a cowboy hat when out in the courtyard of his villa to make it impossible for him to be identified by hovering drones and surveillance satellites.

Attempts to stretch the treason argument still further by claiming that Snowden has provided classified information to Russia and China are equally wrong-headed, as the U.S. has full and normally friendly diplomatic relations with both Moscow and Beijing. Both are major trading partners. Washington is not at war with either nation and never has been apart from a brief and limited intervention in the Russian Civil War in 1918. Nor is there any evidence that Snowden passed any material directly to either country’s government or that he has any connection to their intelligence services.

Then there is the broader “national security” argument. It goes something like this: Washington will no longer be able to spy on enemies and competitors in the world because Snowden has revealed the sources and methods used by the NSA to do so. Everyone will change their methods of communication, and the United States will be both blind and clueless. Well, one might argue that the White House has been clueless for at least 12 years, but the fact is that the technology and techniques employed by NSA are not exactly secret. Any reasonably well educated telecommunications engineer can tell you exactly what is being done, which means the Russians, Chinese, British, Germans, Israelis, and just about everyone else who has an interest is fully aware of what the capabilities of the United States are in a technical sense. This is why they change their diplomatic and military communications codes on a regular basis and why their civilian telecommunications systems have software that detects hacking by organizations like NSA.

Foreign nations also know that what distinguishes the NSA telecommunications interception program is the enormous scale of the dedicated resources in terms of computers and personnel, which permit real time accessing of billions of pieces of information. NSA also benefits from the ability to tie into communications hubs located in the continental United States or that are indirectly accessible, permitting the U.S. government to acquire streams of data directly. The intelligence community is also able to obtain both private data and backdoor access to information through internet, social networking, and computer software companies, the largest of which are American. Anyone interested in more detail on how the NSA operates and what it is capable of should read Jim Bamford’s excellent books on the subject.

The NSA’s capabilities, though highly classified, have long been known to many in the intelligence community. In 2007, I described the Bush administration’s drive to broaden the NSA’s activities, noting that


The president is clearly seeking open-ended authority to intercept communications without any due process, and he apparently intends to do so in the United States… House Republican leader John Boehner (OH), citing 9/11, has described the White House proposal as a necessary step to ‘break down bureaucratic impediments to intelligence collection and analysis.’ It is not at all clear how unlimited access to currently protected personal information that is already accessible through an oversight procedure would do that. ‘Modernizing’ FISA would enable the government to operate without any restraint. Is that what Boehner actually means?

It was clear to me that in 2007 Washington already possessed the technical capability to greatly increase its interception of communications networks, but I was wrong in my belief that the government had actually been somewhat restrained by legal and privacy concerns. Operating widely in a permissive extralegal environment had already started six years before, shortly after 9/11, under the auspices of the Patriot Act and the Authorization for Use of Military Force.

The White House’s colossal data mining operation has now been exposed by Edward Snowden, and the American people have discovered that they have been scrutinized by Washington far beyond any level that they would have imagined possible. Many foreign nations have also now realized that the scope of U.S. spying exceeds any reasonable standard of behavior, so much so that if there are any bombshells remaining in the documents taken by Snowden they would most likely relate to the specific targets of overseas espionage.

Here in the United States, it remains to be seen whether anyone actually cares enough to do something about the illegal activity while being bombarded with the false claims that the out of control surveillance program “has kept us safe.” It is interesting to observe in passing that the revelations derived from Snowden’s whistleblowing strongly suggest that the hippies and other counter-culture types who, back in the 1960s, protested that the government could not be trusted actually had it right all along.

Philip Giraldi, a former CIA officer, is executive director of the Council for the National Interest.



Aaron Paolozzi says:

July 16, 2013 at 10:53 am


Unfortunately Mr. Giraldi, the only way to get these types of programs under control as well we both know is to have a very acutely aware populace as to what is going on, a congress that cares more about the constitution, rule of law, and the people they espouse to represent than their egos and re-election agenda, and a President that cares for the same.

None of these are present. And it pretty much ensures what we all know will happen. Snowden will go away one way or another, and this issues will end with some superficial changes and wrist slapping but nothing more.

President Obama, enjoys the expansion of the security state just as much as the so called conservatives in congress. The people are not well enough informed to see past the rhetoric about Snowden to understand that this is the kind of government intrusion that our founding fathers were deathly afraid of and fought to keep out of the hands of the government.

As much as I wish or hope that people would wake up and cry for the justice we are due, I just don’t see it happening. I see us being lulled back into silent acceptance through one means or another. And it makes me awfully sad.



 
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Sublime Peach



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  posted on 7/16/2013 at 02:09 PM

Whatever this is about, the treason B.S. is way off target. Article 3.3 of the Constitution is about war against the US and direct aid to the enemy. These charges are over the top, and wishful thinking by wannabe dictators like Cheney, who want a return to the good olde days of English high treason laws.

 

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  posted on 7/16/2013 at 02:23 PM
He became a traitor the minute he leaked info to any foreign government. Just leaking about US tapped phones for me is a crime but not to the level as treason. Outing classified info to any foreign country either friend or foe is treason IMO and he should face a long, long time in prison if he ever has the balls to step on US soil again. He made his bed. Let him sleep in it in Russia or Venezuela or Iceland. Then he can figure out what a great country he used to live in and that he turned on.

 

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  posted on 7/16/2013 at 04:08 PM
I'm not sure if he's a traitor or not but he sure is having a hard time finding a place to live... maybe North Korea will take him...

[Edited on 7/16/2013 by StratDal]

 

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  posted on 7/16/2013 at 04:24 PM
Obama would score monster points if he announced amnesty for Snowden, and invited him home to help in an effort to improve the liberties of US citizens in the wake of the Patriot Act and other similar legislation. That alone might reverse what is increasingly looking like a disastrous second term, and give him the political points to get some of the rest of his agenda moving forward. But he'll never do it.

 

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  posted on 7/16/2013 at 04:41 PM
quote:
Obama would score monster points if he announced amnesty for Snowden, and invited him home to help in an effort to improve the liberties of US citizens in the wake of the Patriot Act and other similar legislation. That alone might reverse what is increasingly looking like a disastrous second term, and give him the political points to get some of the rest of his agenda moving forward. But he'll never do it.


Nor should he. It would set a terrible precedent for others to follow in Snowden's treasonous footsteps. Amnesty for leaking classified US info to foreign countries??? Are you for real Rich???

You could also bet your bottom dollar that if he did that the Republicans would turn it into another look what Obama did fiasco and try to make him look terrible for it. He wouldn't get a single political bump or any positive credit. It would just be more of the same with Republicans ripping him and Democrats praising him. He would gain nothing from granting amnesty to Snowden. All he would do is give other traitors the idea that they could get away with taking oaths of privacy and then leaking classified info to whoever they please. One of these days some of this info will come back to haunt us in some way, hopefully not something tragic.

[Edited on 7/16/2013 by sixty8]

 

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  posted on 7/16/2013 at 04:59 PM
Who is this clown that says Snowden is not a traitor!!!?? He took an oath to work in that position and he broke it. I say shoot him a trial!

 

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  posted on 7/16/2013 at 06:40 PM
HELLLL YEAH !!!! LET'S STRING HIM UP !!!! yeeeeeehaaaawww-YIPPIE-KI YO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Keep movin', movin', movin'
Though they're disapprovin'
Keep them dogies movin'
Rawhide!
Don't try to understand 'em
Just rope, throw, and brand 'em
Soon we'll be living high and wide.

 

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  posted on 7/16/2013 at 07:00 PM
Whether he is guilty of the crime of treason or not begs the point. He broke numerous laws and almost definitely is guilty of espionage.

 

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  posted on 7/16/2013 at 07:44 PM
quote:
Nor should he. It would set a terrible precedent for others to follow in Snowden's treasonous footsteps. Amnesty for leaking classified US info to foreign countries??? Are you for real Rich???

If something doesn't change, the liberties guaranteed to us in the Constitution will continue to shrink until they disappear. I'm for anything that alters that course, but unfortunately I don't expect any Federal politician to lead that effort. However, I believe that any politician brave enough to take up that cause would get significant backing from a large portion of the public.

What exactly has he told people? That we're spying on them, and how? You really think they didn't know or at least suspect? Blowing the whistle on it all has provided the opportunity for worldwide discussion, which is a good thing if you prefer liberty. It's not like he's given anyone R&D for our rail guns, plasma cannons, or anti-gravity drives at Area 51.

So when our Xbox/PS3/Honey Boo Boo addicted culture is placated with food stamps for their Doritos and gay marriage for every species, but the garbage man can write his own warrants to search your house because he was suspicious of your trash, will we still be the land of the free?

Wait, let me guess; there's nothing to worry about if you're doing nothing wrong. Oye!


[Edited on 7/17/2013 by Fujirich]

 

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  posted on 7/16/2013 at 09:25 PM
quote:
quote:
Nor should he. It would set a terrible precedent for others to follow in Snowden's treasonous footsteps. Amnesty for leaking classified US info to foreign countries??? Are you for real Rich???

If something doesn't change, the liberties guaranteed to us in the Constitution will continue to shrink until they disappear. I'm for anything that alters that course, but unfortunately I don't expect any Federal politician to lead that effort. However, I believe that any politician brave enough to take up that cause would get significant backing from a large portion of the public.

What exactly has he told people? That we're spying on them, and how? You really think they didn't know or at least suspect? Blowing the whistle on it all has provided the opportunity for worldwide discussion, which is a good thing if you prefer liberty. It's not like he's given anyone R&D for our rail guns, plasma cannons, or anti-gravity drives at Area 51.

So when our Xbox/PS3/Honey Boo Boo addicted culture is placated with food stamps for their Doritos and gay marriage for every species, but the garbage man can write his own warrants to search your house because he was suspicious of your trash, will we still be the land of the free?

Wait, let me guess; there's nothing to worry about if you're doing nothing wrong. Oye!


[Edited on 7/17/2013 by Fujirich]


What we need to do is elect leaders who respect the rule of law. Do people really care anymore or does it not matter as long as "our side wins." There was a time when Republicans saw to the end of Richard Nixon. Today I fear that winning is everything and anything is excuses. We are bereft of statesman.

 

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  posted on 7/17/2013 at 09:22 AM
quote:
What exactly has he told people? That we're spying on them, and how? You really think they didn't know or at least suspect? Blowing the whistle on it all has provided the opportunity for worldwide discussion, which is a good thing if you prefer liberty. It's not like he's given anyone R&D for our rail guns, plasma cannons, or anti-gravity drives at Area 51.


It's horrible PR to have our own citizens and government workers lashing out at us and broadcasting our secrets to the world. It sends the message that the US's own people even hate them, further justifying the widespread anit-American sentiments across the globe. In other words, if the US citizens disapprove and attack the US government, then why shouldn't we?

 

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  posted on 7/17/2013 at 02:45 PM
quote:
quote:
What exactly has he told people? That we're spying on them, and how? You really think they didn't know or at least suspect? Blowing the whistle on it all has provided the opportunity for worldwide discussion, which is a good thing if you prefer liberty. It's not like he's given anyone R&D for our rail guns, plasma cannons, or anti-gravity drives at Area 51.

It's horrible PR to have our own citizens and government workers lashing out at us and broadcasting our secrets to the world. It sends the message that the US's own people even hate them, further justifying the widespread anit-American sentiments across the globe. In other words, if the US citizens disapprove and attack the US government, then why shouldn't we?

I see the exact opposite. We've spent a century or more promoting the idea that liberty is the most important aspect of American culture, and that we have a gov't that respects those values. Anyone following in recent years, foreign or domestic, has seen the diminishment of that promise. If a large enough group of determined citizens pushed for and succeeded in restoring those values we supposedly cherish, it would demonstrated the strength of our system to correct itself. I can't imagine a better example for the world to see.

I'm personally a little tired of watching American leaders boast for the past few decades about how liberty makes us so great, all the while slowly whittling away at the Constitution while growing gov't power. Wouldn't it be nice to actually prove it through positive action instead of hollow rhetoric?

 

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  posted on 7/17/2013 at 02:56 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
What exactly has he told people? That we're spying on them, and how? You really think they didn't know or at least suspect? Blowing the whistle on it all has provided the opportunity for worldwide discussion, which is a good thing if you prefer liberty. It's not like he's given anyone R&D for our rail guns, plasma cannons, or anti-gravity drives at Area 51.

It's horrible PR to have our own citizens and government workers lashing out at us and broadcasting our secrets to the world. It sends the message that the US's own people even hate them, further justifying the widespread anit-American sentiments across the globe. In other words, if the US citizens disapprove and attack the US government, then why shouldn't we?

I see the exact opposite. We've spent a century or more promoting the idea that liberty is the most important aspect of American culture, and that we have a gov't that respects those values. Anyone following in recent years, foreign or domestic, has seen the diminishment of that promise. If a large enough group of determined citizens pushed for and succeeded in restoring those values we supposedly cherish, it would demonstrated the strength of our system to correct itself. I can't imagine a better example for the world to see.

I'm personally a little tired of watching American leaders boast for the past few decades about how liberty makes us so great, all the while slowly whittling away at the Constitution while growing gov't power. Wouldn't it be nice to actually prove it through positive action instead of hollow rhetoric?


Hold on a second. The current security/surveillance state was created with the blessings of the vast majority of the American public as a means to prevent future terrorist attacks. The President at the time told us to go shopping and don't worry about it, and we did.

We must reconcile and revisit the "War or Terror" and where exactly law enforcement fits into an increasingly digital age.

We, as a society, never expect bad things to happen. Bad things are not supposed to happen to us. When they do, we never, ever look at it that no matter what you do, the risk of living in a free society is that bad things can happen.

Let me put it this way, if surveillance was scaled back to pre-9/11 levels, and there was a massive terrorist attack that the newer surveillance measures would have prevented and the public found out, we both know that the public would lose their minds demanding "Why didn't someone do something?"


 

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  posted on 7/17/2013 at 03:32 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
What exactly has he told people? That we're spying on them, and how? You really think they didn't know or at least suspect? Blowing the whistle on it all has provided the opportunity for worldwide discussion, which is a good thing if you prefer liberty. It's not like he's given anyone R&D for our rail guns, plasma cannons, or anti-gravity drives at Area 51.

It's horrible PR to have our own citizens and government workers lashing out at us and broadcasting our secrets to the world. It sends the message that the US's own people even hate them, further justifying the widespread anit-American sentiments across the globe. In other words, if the US citizens disapprove and attack the US government, then why shouldn't we?

I see the exact opposite. We've spent a century or more promoting the idea that liberty is the most important aspect of American culture, and that we have a gov't that respects those values. Anyone following in recent years, foreign or domestic, has seen the diminishment of that promise. If a large enough group of determined citizens pushed for and succeeded in restoring those values we supposedly cherish, it would demonstrated the strength of our system to correct itself. I can't imagine a better example for the world to see.

I'm personally a little tired of watching American leaders boast for the past few decades about how liberty makes us so great, all the while slowly whittling away at the Constitution while growing gov't power. Wouldn't it be nice to actually prove it through positive action instead of hollow rhetoric?

Hold on a second. The current security/surveillance state was created with the blessings of the vast majority of the American public as a means to prevent future terrorist attacks. The President at the time told us to go shopping and don't worry about it, and we did.

We must reconcile and revisit the "War or Terror" and where exactly law enforcement fits into an increasingly digital age.

We, as a society, never expect bad things to happen. Bad things are not supposed to happen to us. When they do, we never, ever look at it that no matter what you do, the risk of living in a free society is that bad things can happen.

Let me put it this way, if surveillance was scaled back to pre-9/11 levels, and there was a massive terrorist attack that the newer surveillance measures would have prevented and the public found out, we both know that the public would lose their minds demanding "Why didn't someone do something?"

What you describe is the eternal struggle between those who want security at all costs, vs those who know that once gov't abuses of individual liberties picks up momentum, it will never stop. Given the variances in human nature, we can never expect 100% agreement on such issues.

But even given that, it's not all or nothing. Scaling back to protect 4th Amendment rights doesn't mean we stop all surveillance or data collection. We can still collect as much as possible on our enemies, or non-US citizens. But if the need arises to bring scrutiny upon a US citizen, warrants should still be approved by the traditional process and no blanket or dragnet type collection should be permitted upon US citizens.

The one's screaming the loudest when an attack takes place are usually those who have something to gain from getting gov't to send more money their way. I'm a tad suspicious when I hear those arguments.

 

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  posted on 7/17/2013 at 03:57 PM
quote:
What you describe is the eternal struggle between those who want security at all costs, vs those who know that once gov't abuses of individual liberties picks up momentum, it will never stop.


I don't buy into the snowball effect. It could just as easy not snowball.

quote:
The one's screaming the loudest when an attack takes place are usually those who have something to gain from getting gov't to send more money their way. I'm a tad suspicious when I hear those arguments.


What do you mean by that? Not sure I understand.

 

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  posted on 7/17/2013 at 04:13 PM
quote:
The one's screaming the loudest when an attack takes place are usually those who have something to gain from getting gov't to send more money their way.


Huh?

 

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  posted on 7/17/2013 at 04:22 PM
quote:
Obama would score monster points if he announced amnesty for Snowden, and invited him home to help in an effort to improve the liberties of US citizens in the wake of the Patriot Act and other similar legislation. That alone might reverse what is increasingly looking like a disastrous second term, and give him the political points to get some of the rest of his agenda moving forward. But he'll never do it.

Dumbest idea I've heard in a long time. Not only does it set an untenable precendent as someone already mentioned, but it would almost certianly generate a very different reaction than what you are describing.

quote:
If something doesn't change, the liberties guaranteed to us in the Constitution will continue to shrink until they disappear.

I don't buy that for a second.

quote:
Let me put it this way, if surveillance was scaled back to pre-9/11 levels, and there was a massive terrorist attack that the newer surveillance measures would have prevented and the public found out, we both know that the public would lose their minds demanding "Why didn't someone do something?"

Ding, ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!

[Edited on 7/17/2013 by gondicar]

 

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  posted on 7/17/2013 at 04:57 PM
quote:
quote:
Obama would score monster points if he announced amnesty for Snowden, and invited him home to help in an effort to improve the liberties of US citizens in the wake of the Patriot Act and other similar legislation. That alone might reverse what is increasingly looking like a disastrous second term, and give him the political points to get some of the rest of his agenda moving forward. But he'll never do it.

Dumbest idea I've heard in a long time. Not only does it set an untenable precendent as someone already mentioned, but it would almost certianly generate a very different reaction than what you are describing.

quote:
If something doesn't change, the liberties guaranteed to us in the Constitution will continue to shrink until they disappear.

I don't buy that for a second.

quote:
Let me put it this way, if surveillance was scaled back to pre-9/11 levels, and there was a massive terrorist attack that the newer surveillance measures would have prevented and the public found out, we both know that the public would lose their minds demanding "Why didn't someone do something?"

Ding, ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!

[Edited on 7/17/2013 by gondicar]


I like the way you framed your responses. Good post!

 

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  posted on 7/17/2013 at 05:04 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
What exactly has he told people? That we're spying on them, and how? You really think they didn't know or at least suspect? Blowing the whistle on it all has provided the opportunity for worldwide discussion, which is a good thing if you prefer liberty. It's not like he's given anyone R&D for our rail guns, plasma cannons, or anti-gravity drives at Area 51.

It's horrible PR to have our own citizens and government workers lashing out at us and broadcasting our secrets to the world. It sends the message that the US's own people even hate them, further justifying the widespread anit-American sentiments across the globe. In other words, if the US citizens disapprove and attack the US government, then why shouldn't we?

I see the exact opposite. We've spent a century or more promoting the idea that liberty is the most important aspect of American culture, and that we have a gov't that respects those values. Anyone following in recent years, foreign or domestic, has seen the diminishment of that promise. If a large enough group of determined citizens pushed for and succeeded in restoring those values we supposedly cherish, it would demonstrated the strength of our system to correct itself. I can't imagine a better example for the world to see.

I'm personally a little tired of watching American leaders boast for the past few decades about how liberty makes us so great, all the while slowly whittling away at the Constitution while growing gov't power. Wouldn't it be nice to actually prove it through positive action instead of hollow rhetoric?


Hold on a second. The current security/surveillance state was created with the blessings of the vast majority of the American public as a means to prevent future terrorist attacks. The President at the time told us to go shopping and don't worry about it, and we did.

We must reconcile and revisit the "War or Terror" and where exactly law enforcement fits into an increasingly digital age.

We, as a society, never expect bad things to happen. Bad things are not supposed to happen to us. When they do, we never, ever look at it that no matter what you do, the risk of living in a free society is that bad things can happen.

Let me put it this way, if surveillance was scaled back to pre-9/11 levels, and there was a massive terrorist attack that the newer surveillance measures would have prevented and the public found out, we both know that the public would lose their minds demanding "Why didn't someone do something?"




Exactly!!!!!!!!!! Great post Jerry!!!!!!!!!!

 

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  posted on 7/17/2013 at 05:14 PM
I have no problem with him blowing the whistle on the government for the spying on American citizens...however, when he started leaking information and if he makes good on his threat to leak the manners by which all the intelligence is collected he's crossed the line from whistle blowing to treason in my opinion.

 

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  posted on 7/17/2013 at 06:05 PM
quote:
quote:
What you describe is the eternal struggle between those who want security at all costs, vs those who know that once gov't abuses of individual liberties picks up momentum, it will never stop.


I don't buy into the snowball effect. It could just as easy not snowball.

quote:
The one's screaming the loudest when an attack takes place are usually those who have something to gain from getting gov't to send more money their way. I'm a tad suspicious when I hear those arguments.


What do you mean by that? Not sure I understand.

The history of gov't power vs individual freedom consistently shows that gov't power creeps endlessly forward at the expense of personal liberty. It has always been so.

What I meant by the "ones screaming the loudest" comment is that those who clamor for more and more gov't security measures, departments, capabilities often have connections with the very companies that supply the infrastructure and/or technology for said activities. How do you think these guys come out of DC having accrued 10's of millions during their time in office? Just lucky stock picks?

 

____________________
Obamacare: To insure the uninsured, we first make the insured
uninsured and then make them pay more to be insured again,
so the original uninsured can be insured for free.

 

Universal Peach



Karma:
Posts: 6495
(6494 all sites)
Registered: 8/11/2004
Status: Offline

  posted on 7/18/2013 at 09:13 AM
quote:
quote:
quote:
What you describe is the eternal struggle between those who want security at all costs, vs those who know that once gov't abuses of individual liberties picks up momentum, it will never stop.


I don't buy into the snowball effect. It could just as easy not snowball.

quote:
The one's screaming the loudest when an attack takes place are usually those who have something to gain from getting gov't to send more money their way. I'm a tad suspicious when I hear those arguments.


What do you mean by that? Not sure I understand.

The history of gov't power vs individual freedom consistently shows that gov't power creeps endlessly forward at the expense of personal liberty. It has always been so.

What I meant by the "ones screaming the loudest" comment is that those who clamor for more and more gov't security measures, departments, capabilities often have connections with the very companies that supply the infrastructure and/or technology for said activities. How do you think these guys come out of DC having accrued 10's of millions during their time in office? Just lucky stock picks?


Exactly, Fuij. The "revolving door" situation is partly why the military/industrial/congressional/ security complex is so entrenched in our government. People like Rumsfeld, Cheney, etc. made their millions through this method and Rudy Gulliani (sp) is another example of a long time bureaucrat who created a very lucrative security business by leveraging his gov't contacts to make a fortune in the security business. All the while ensuring the pipeline to taxpayer funds remains open anyway they can. And it certainly happens in the Democratic party as well. It happens in the Pentagon, in the banking industry, telecom, etc....Al Gore isn't worth a quarter billion because he's a genius business man. He's simply smart enough to use his gov't contacts, connections, etc. to make millions off various ideas the government supports in some way or another.

 
 


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