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Author: Subject: Why Does ABB Not Allow Torrents??

Peach Pit





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  posted on 9/29/2005 at 05:33 AM
IMO by not allowing the trading of their music online, the ABB is missing out on
getting new fans and increasing awareness of the band. I realize it's their music and
their choice, but it would be *so* beneficial to them to allow Torrents of their stuff. They're
really missing the boat on this.


[Edited on 9/29/2005 by Marcust99]

 
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A Peach Supreme



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  posted on 9/29/2005 at 06:19 AM
But there are enough tapers and enough of us traders on here to not need to torrent ABB shows. Takes a little longer, but dont you love coming home from work and finding a bunch of parcels filled with ABB goodies. I DO.
 

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  posted on 9/29/2005 at 07:01 AM
For all the good it does, my opinion on this topic is oft-repeated & a matter of record.
 
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  posted on 9/29/2005 at 09:04 PM
Paul, I don't think I ever read your opinion on this matter.

Anyway I agree with Peach-head and I think it's ludicrous for the ABB to worry about downloading from peer to peer networks. AUD copies just can't compete with the sound quality of Instant Lives or other band released shows like Mule Tracks. I think fans are gonna buy the same amount of band released live recordings and commercial recordings as they would if they could download.

If anything, hearing the AUD recording makes me more interested in getting a higher quality recording of a show I did not attend at some point. I know I have a long list of Mule Tracks to-get, whereas I have only a few on my ABB to-get list. I know I would have found a few more "needed" ABB shows if I was able to download instead of having to seek out a BNP.

Frankly now, sending people discs is more like a hassle, or a very kind and generous gesture. Thankfully people here are kind and generous when I do take the time to seek out the show or two or three I "must" listen to. (Ron Holloway and Jack Pearson's shows come to mind.) And I know I feel like Santa Clause when I send out the shows I do send out.

Regardless of availability, there is a limit to how much one can listen to and purchase anyway, and I don't think that limit changes depending on ones ability to download AUD copies of shows or not.

At this point, I think allowing BT's is a gift a band gives their loyal fans.


 

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  posted on 9/29/2005 at 09:16 PM
It has nothing to do with that. It's about keeping the sharing and trading of music a personal connection between fans.

Any anonymous jackass can download a bittorrent file. There's no sense of community and connection with anyone else. It's very sterile.

The band is just trying to keep the personal touch alive. That's my take on it anyway. Regardless of what their feelings are, I don't think not allowing torrents is hurting them.

That's too bad that you see disc trading as a hassle. I remember trading cassettes before the internet. I had to write people letters or call strangers on the phone, based on a 3 line ad in the back of Relix magazine!

Is it more convenient now? Sure. But I made quite a few good friends in that old way - including some lifelong ones. I feel a greater sense of connection with the handful of folks on this site I've exchanged discs with. Can't really say that with regard to anyone I've met on Dimeadozen or Etree though...

Here, the folks actually care about the music, not what your damn share ratio is.

There's my thoughts on it.
Dirk

 

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  posted on 9/29/2005 at 09:29 PM
It keeps me from listening to them. I don't have time to send BnPs. I used to do that, but I'm in a hotel room 3-4 nites a week and the last thing on my mind is looking for trades. The last show I got from the Allmans was back in 2000. And unfortunately, I haven't seen them in over 2 years. I've sorta lost interest in them... compared to five years ago.

 

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  posted on 9/29/2005 at 11:26 PM
Like PaulMcFadyen, I've posted my opinion on this a number of times. That opinion lines up fairly closely with Angelemerald's.

I see what tnjazzgrass is saying, and I agree that your statement accurately reflects what I've heard from "band" sources, but I think the idea that you'll get that sense of community and personal connection from one-on-one trades, but that same connection is precluded by electronic sharing is flawed.

For instance, I've got decent e-relationships with two or three prolific tapers. Because of this, now and then I'll get a show before a lot of folks on the trades board, and I'll be the first to make an offer on a particular show (I concede, that does feel good). People around here jump on new ABB quickly (obvsiously). Now, most of these guys/gals don't know me, and I don't know them. Maybe I'll meet them someday, maybe I won't, maybe I like their posts, maybe I think they need to write less and read more. My purpose in making a B&P offer is to help distribute music to the community in general, not to make friends. And in a lot of cases, the people signing up for those B&P offers aren't interested in any personal relationship with me, they want the music. That's not to say I don't share music with friends, because I do. But we would be friends regardless of whether or not we were mailing discs back and forth. In the case of one my my best friends on this site, and yes, we've met in person at a number of shows, our relationship began because of our mutual interest in BitTorrent technology. So, it can go both ways.

If I'm rambling here, let me summarize by saying that restricting downloads is not guarantee that community will develop, and allowing downloads does not prohibit that community from developing.

I see BT and FTP and other forms of electronic transfer as being just the next stage of the technology. Why not make use of it?

Chris, I thought you made one of the 2004 N. Carolina shows?

Here's a very short list of bands whose CD's I've bought or concerts I've attended after first partaking of an electronic download:

Phil Lesh and Friends
Bela Fleck and the Flecktones (everything)
Jazz is Dead (everything)
Steve Kimock
Blue Floyd
Phish
Widespread Panic
String Cheese Incident
Bill Frisell (ironically, he requested his material be removed shortly after I downloaded my first show of his).

That's a short list, I'm sure I could think of at least half a dozen others . . . - Heavenly Jams Band, there's another one.

Anyway, while the ABB's revenues and exposure might not be greatly increased by allowing electronic sharing, I do think they'd pick up a few fans here and there, as did the bands above.

Peace.


[Edited on 9/30/2005 by TopDroog]

 

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  posted on 9/29/2005 at 11:31 PM
Droogie

you traded with me back on the old board, my first trades were with you.

You have been and will always be my friend.


doesn't happen with downloads

peace
John

 

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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 12:45 AM
There were times past that I did defend the policy the ABB has about downloading. Of course, they can ask their fans to do whatever they like, but I started thinking about this a while ago, and I realized that their policy is absolutely stupid. It doesn't make any sense.

If, years ago, they'd asked fans not to do it so they could set up their own service, that might be different. But we've never heard even a hint that they're going to do that, and I doubt they're trying. (Gov't Mule puts every show online pretty quick, and even so, I don't think they ever 'banned' filesharing. Do you think there's no community among Mule fans?) The only thing the ABB's filesharing policy does is prevent more people from hearing their music, which is actually the opposite of the whole "bringing the music to the people" thing that they cultivated with their live shows over the years. Nothing is accomplished by this policy, and no one is helped. In fact, in box office terms, I'd say it hurts the band. The ABB is now years behind the times on this issue, and I think they've shown no indication they are moving forward. Why is that? Why is it that Gov't Mule and so many younger bands, not to mention older ones like the Dead, can do this stuff so quickly, and the ABB just makes no use of it? If they don't care, fine. But "because they care about the community?" They've got a Web site (which they're not involved with anyway!) that has more than 9,000 members. Come on. Are they saying it's going to disappear if they allow filesharing? Do they think people won't still go to shows together and hang out?

I think Droog is correct. The community we have came into existence because of the music, and it doesn't make sense to deny that community the newest ways to hear that music. If the band was providing it, that would be different. But they aren't. It's a little bit like if the band had said, maybe four years ago, "tape trading is okay, but please don't trade CDs."

Maybe this is a tangent, but you know, Mule Tracks has been around for a couple of months, the Mule already has two classic Mule Tracks shows for download on its site. (Plus whole tours, of course.) The ABB has three archive shows out in 3 1/2 years. And it's not because there aren't other shows to be had, and I'm pretty sure it's not because Hittin' the Note isn't trying to get them out. I feel like it's a symptom of the same problem. Would it be very hard for the ABB to start a program where fans could download good-quality classic ABB shows from this tour, last tour, 1996? Probably not. Even though a lot of people have those shows, there are just so many ABB shows out there that I bet plenty of people would be interested.
quote:
But there are enough tapers and enough of us traders on here to not need to torrent ABB shows.

This kind of reads like "we already have a pony express, why do we need a postal service with trains?" Please don't take offense to this, but I think this is part of the reason the ABB just doesn't have the kind of operation that the Dead does or Mule does. It's like they assume they have a set fanbase that will be interested in whatever they do. There are a couple of problems with that. Chris mentioned one, Angelemerald mentioned another, and a third is that it keeps them from reaching more potential fans. If they don't care about new fans, that's their business, but with this filesharing thing, they're kind of taking the fans they DO have for granted, which is never a good idea.

Just think back to March. Taperrob put a few Beacon shows on Live365. Beacon shows are the most talked-about and anticipated shows of the year, and the most experimental by far. And there's no Instant Live at the Beacon. Did you see the reaction to the shows Rob posted? People went crazy! They were let down whenever he said he wasn't going to make a show. I know I was. I wanted to hear what was happening right away, right as I was hearing people come back from those shows and talk about how great they were. I hung around my computer for hours to hear the whole thing. If the ABB made something like that available, even if it was just okay quality and ready quickly, I think people would jump on it. What's the point of waiting weeks for the CDs to make their way around to everybody? That doesn't build community, it just wastes time.


quote:
Takes a little longer, but dont you love coming home from work and finding a bunch of parcels filled with ABB goodies. I DO.

And you could still trade that way if you want to. I'm sure people would; it's not like everyone is going to get into filesharing, especially right away. But for the ABB to say no to it? It just doesn't make sense. It probably never did, and by now, it definitely doesn't.

 

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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 08:51 AM



Marley - that sums up my feelings on the matter better than I could ever find the time to do!

Well said.

 
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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 09:10 AM
quote:
It keeps me from listening to them. I don't have time to send BnPs. I used to do that, but I'm in a hotel room 3-4 nites a week and the last thing on my mind is looking for trades. The last show I got from the Allmans was back in 2000. And unfortunately, I haven't seen them in over 2 years. I've sorta lost interest in them... compared to five years ago.

Yeah but Chris you are most definitely in the minority here buddy. You mean to say you haven't had time to grab even a "few" shows from the past 5 years? If thats the case, the bit torrent thing wouldn't be much a help to you either then. If you haven't been to a show recently, I don't think thats a case of not downloading. Is Bit-torrent etc. a good thing?...Yes I think it is, but our trading community is pretty vibrant at the moment regardless I would say. There is lots of shows getting spread around plus we build friendships because of it. I don't think think it's going to grow leaps and bounds because of downloading - maybe some, maybe more than some. I think it IS a VERY good thing for a younger band who isn't yet established and a buzz needs to be created among their audience and live shows. We already have on hell of a buzz going...I just go with the flow I guess, but maybe the bands policy will change at some point - I hope so.







[Edited on 9/30/2005 by EddieP]

 
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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 09:54 AM
quote:
Droogie

you traded with me back on the old board, my first trades were with you.

You have been and will always be my friend.




True, that, and I'm glad for it. However, you and I also connected (and I believe, still would have connected) on a variety of other matters - you did all those vinyl transfers for me, I gifted you a few items, we play on eachother's jokes, we've discussed prog rock on a number of occasions, Vonnegut, etc. I think this website has been absolutely wonderful in serving as the spark for many friendships (and at least one marriage ) that have come about in a variety of ways. The trades forum is certainly part of that. I do not believe the overall number of opportunities for establishing such friendships would diminish if we were to see a gradual shift away from hard-media trades and toward electronic transfers.

 

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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 10:39 AM
Well I came here in '99 to find out who that hot young slide player was after
the Merriweather Post show on the 30th anniversary tour.

But It was the trading aspect that brought me back once I had that info.

If not for that I doubt I would have stuck arround.

(now is that an argument for or against one to one trading?)

 

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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 10:43 AM
quote:
quote:
It keeps me from listening to them. I don't have time to send BnPs. I used to do that, but I'm in a hotel room 3-4 nites a week and the last thing on my mind is looking for trades. The last show I got from the Allmans was back in 2000. And unfortunately, I haven't seen them in over 2 years. I've sorta lost interest in them... compared to five years ago.


Yeah but Chris you are most definitely in the minority here buddy.


I don't think he's in the minority, the policy is very limiting.
The policy isn't stoping tapers, but it has forced us underground, and what benefit could that provide?

Sure some of the tapes surface back to this msg bd, but if it was wide-open (the policy) you would see a different type of community develop and thrive, specifically fans who prefer better sounding recordings. I'm not sure if you listened to the InstantLive! recordings, but they seem very sterile and for a lack of a better word 'boring'. I am glad that they have mics for the crowd, because that was a big complaint for the initial product from these instant cd companies. i'll put my recording up against a SBD anyday and i think you'll be surprised at the preferences of most people (assuming a blind test was done..)

this band is one of 1 few dozen that don't allow torrents, and it's a shocker in this day and age. if you truely think that old trade are a good means of distribution, then fine, please educate fans on how to use lossless trades (i.e. flac files, compressed wavs that are perfectly uncompress-able and provide a "PERFECT" digital copy for many many many generations of the show.

if you were to simple burn copies of your show and re-offer it, that would be taking this community backwards, no denying that. it will introduce a poor 'genetic' into the trading pool and that can easily compound into a skipping disc or other general errors.

my .02, please continue this discussion, it is a healthy one that i hope the band reads. i care about what music i listen to and i think everyone here does too. taking from that, why wouldn't the band want the higher quality copies circulated?





[Edited on 9/30/2005 by titotito]

 

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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 11:01 AM
Marley said: Taperrob put a few Beacon shows on Live365. Beacon shows are the most talked-about and anticipated shows of the year, and the most experimental by far. And there's no Instant Live at the Beacon. Did you see the reaction to the shows Rob posted? People went crazy! They were let down whenever he said he wasn't going to make a show. I know I was. I wanted to hear what was happening right away, right as I was hearing people come back from those shows and talk about how great they were. I hung around my computer for hours to hear the whole thing.>>

Yeah that is the next frontier. I was thrilled that I could see the ABB on a live (audio/visual) stream (yahoo) from the recent Austin City Limits show. Unfortunately I could not tune in for Mule.

I don't know where all this stuff is gonna lead in terms of translating it into income for the bands, but I will say that it is a very exciting time in music distribution.

As for Instant Live and Mule Tracks, I think more would be sold if the prices came down some what. Especially Mule Tracks as some of the shows are of a short duration. Maybe Mule could start offering some discounts such as three shows for the price of two, or something like that. Maybe some discounts for the holidays perhaps????

I do know that my music listening habits have changed dramatically from when I was in my 20's and 30's. I only used to listen to commercial releases and now all I listen to are live shows. I used to listen to a wide variety of musicians, most found by listening to the radio. Now I listen to a few bands in depth and have been able to learn about a ton of musicians I never heard of because they aren't played often on commercial radio.

I'm not so sure that tape (cd) trading is the factor that creates community, but I am sure that trading, downloads and live streams has opened up a world of music and musicians I wouldn't have stumbled across otherwise.

Angela


 

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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 11:13 AM
What I meant by Chris being in the minority was that he said he had virtually "no" shows from the past 5 years. Almost all of us have quite a few. I for one don't need every show but I like to get 15 or 20 per year of the best shows from that year. I simply can't listen to everything...I do give it a hell of a try though . He also said he lost interest in the band because of it - I still say thats the monority. Most of us here remain very interested in the band. Look at how many folks come here day after day just to see what the band is doing and playing and has planned for the future. Could a downloading community add to this? Most certainly and I am all for it...




[Edited on 9/30/2005 by EddieP]

 
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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 11:26 AM
One thing to keep in mind when considering the community aspect of BT's is that the folks who seed shows are treated with the same gratitude and respect as are the folks who offer up BnPs. Additionally, not unlike this site's trading forum, you'll find that there are people who seed or offer up lots and lots of shows. Attached to each BT listing is a thread in which people express their gratitude and discuss the music; again, not unlike our site here. There is definitely a community aspect to the BT world. People are known by their user names and relationships are built.

In terms of time, BT's are much more efficient, in my opinion. I can hook into a BT at 11 at night, hit the sack, and in the morning I've downloaded my show and distributed the same show several times over. I can't send envelopes in my sleep!

 

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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 11:33 AM
Hat's off to both Topdroog and Marley...
very well put indeed !!!

My collection of shows in lossless format has been obtained by both
snailmail trades / freebies and by BT downloads and IMHO is the best way to
collect (or feed your addiction ). Sometimes by cool online trades with
very pleasant PM's and emails resulting in great contacts with felow traders & collecters.
But that can also happen with BT torrents. There's a lot of cool community feeling
in that too. A lot of people post their "thank you's" or jpgs of cdr cover art on the forums.
Often people have suggestions about cool stuff to be uploaded next.

Old fashioned bootleggers (professional silver cds sold at cd-shops or music fairs world-wide) or the ebay scum that sells cdrs of shows at exorbitant prices may find their
source material very easy today because of the WWW and it's many technologies.
But they will get their material one way or another. if they can't conveniently download it
they will get it by snailmail trades , get it as freebies or (unfortunally) make pirate copies
of Instant Live shows. Not allowing BT torrents is not an effective weapon against bootlegging and maybe the opposite is even more true.
The more people that can get the AUD / FM concert or rarities they are looking for by easy downloading for free the less people will be inclined to pay for it. And many people
may also get interested in buying SB / Matrix downloads or instant live shows, archive releases and new official content.
It's the ABB policy and we have to respect it but i truelly hope they will change it one day and it won't damage them a bit.

Peace and happy weekend / late night downloading and trading !!!!!!

 

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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 12:46 PM
personal touch my ass

 

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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 01:09 PM
quote:
personal touch my ass
is it still thursday...?

 

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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 01:17 PM

quote:
personal, touch my ass


I'd really rather not ...

 

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Zen Peach



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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 01:23 PM
quote:


You have been and will always be my friend.


John Wott is Mr. Spock?!

 

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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 01:52 PM
quote:
personal touch my ass


who's Personal? Is that a boy or girl???

 

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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 02:14 PM
quote:
Why Does ABB Not Allow Torrents??



Because someone in the organization doesn't understand the concept.
Only popular free to trade band I am aware of that doesn't "want" digital trading of their non commercial music/videos made.
get with the program and quit burning energy and natural resources ABB!!!!

 

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  posted on 9/30/2005 at 02:27 PM
quote:
quote:


You have been and will always be my friend.


John Wott is Mr. Spock?!


And we tried so hard to keep it a secret.

 

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